Finescale - of a sort?!

[Peter Insole]

On this fascinating subject there is quite a bit more that I could go rambling on about, but this morning I remembered that the purpose of this thread is more to do with the model build! I shall now therefore move hopefully closer to the point...

At the top of my priority list of previously unobtainable details was the steam brake valve - with particular emphasis on determining not only the precise design of the original fittings, but most importantly, what material each part was made of!

Here is the unfortunate "lash-up" job on "Wren" at the NRM:



This, along with several other reference shots, at least provide sufficient information to make up the main body, complete with slightly tricky to make backstops on wings! The thick brass lever handle is evidently an almost useless bodge of the lowest order though!

Below is another cropped image (usual copyright disclaimer) and previously the best I could find to show more of what it should be like - on a Horwich built loco anyway:



Finally, two pictures of the genuine article, or at least one that matches what can be discerned in available drawings, and appears more likely to have been originally supplied by Beyer Peacock...



The first thing to say about these last two images; please ignore the peculiar steam valve, handwheel and additional pipe fitted to the top of the manifold... these items are later additions; providing a separate supply for a small "Beccles" type pump, fitted to augment the single injector, and unique to BP's own "Dot"!

The other is that the steam brake valve body on this engine is very slightly different from both the specification, and the Horwich ones - with the backstops set further inboard - and ironically, (considering that I want a Horwich variant) marginally easier to model! Every other part matches the drawings, although clearly, some of the later examples (including "Mouse") had shorter and thicker handles on the levers!

I had hoped that in finally, and literally getting "hands on", I would be able to discover whether the lever and/or handles were manufactured in either steel or non-ferrous alloys... naturally assuming that it would be an easy matter to distinguish - and subsequently replicate on the model.



Pah! Like hell it is!

One of the curators suggested that the distinctively dull, grey (with an almost Mazac like appearance) material might be gunmetal?

I have always been under the impression that as they are subjected to pressure, all steam fittings are usually made in bronze or gunmetal anyway, but that common brass is a perfectly reasonable substitute to represent both when modelling a polished finish?

The really big question now is; what colour on earth were these levers when still in regular service?

Did they look generally brassy, bronzy or steely - and if none of those, what can I possibly use to make it?!

Pete.

 

[oldravendale]

Here is the unfortunate "lash-up" job on "Wren" at the NRM:

View attachment 220273

This, along with several other reference shots, at least provide sufficient information to make up the main body, complete with slightly tricky to make backstops on wings! The thick brass lever handle is evidently an almost useless bodge of the lowest order though!

To see and hear that is rather sad, Pete. The NRM should be able to do a bit better than a bodge. And if a lash up it should be stated as such or at least representative of what might have been there. Or maybe an appropriate notice was on display. I suspect from your comments that this wasn't the case.

With money tight there are other, probably more pro active repositories for our heritage.

Brian

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

With regard to the B&W photo crop - depending on what film stock and when the photo was taken of Midget (looks like 1932 according to the properties in the caption when you hover over the picture) I would say the main upright handle was painted red - remembering red appears as black on orthochromatic film which would have been prevelant at the time. Although Panchromatic film was available it was far more expensive.

The smaller handles I suspect would be is the worn polished finish of the metal alloy used.

Colour rendition on B&W is discussed in the thread here Black and White Colour Rendition

 

[Peter Insole]

Wow Dave, thanks for that keen observation! I had been pondering why that particular handle was so notably darker than it ought to be in the photo of Midget. That very plausible explanation never crossed my mind though!

I wonder if painting brake levers and handles red was an LMS feature based on standardised "Group" practice, or whether that was an earlier, constituent company (hopefully LYR) tradition carried over into the 1930's?

Pete.

 

[Tim Humphreys ex Mudhen]

I don't think we should be too harsh on the NRM. The loco could easily have been scrapped and at least they saved it. To expect them to restore it to original condition might be a expecting a bit too much. I'm sure locos of this type went through many changes in their working life.

Keep up the good work Pete,

Tim

 

[Overseer]

I would expect the brake handle to be steel (or iron), and that is what the photos seem to show. Probably painted ex works but the paint would chip/wear off with use. It would be hot so a cloth or gloves would be needed to hold the handle. The thicker handles might be wrapped in something insulating.

 

[Peter Insole]

I'm sorry Tim if my comments came across as being harsh... but they were perhaps a measure of my sadness, and even at times a degree of frustration!

Of course I am grateful that the engine was retained by the British Transport Commission. It was during the period after "official" withdrawal, when it was moved from it's original shed, to be put "on display" in the main erecting shop at Horwich, and simultaneously used for apprentice training that some "attractive" parts went missing. The final "resoration", before transfer to Clapham was at least carried out by very professional painters, albeit in a completely inaccurate livery - although lets face it, that was almost a fashion in the early 1960's! The "bodges" that I have referred to were all carried out by other Horwich artisans at that same time.

After a few years, and including the move to York, the condition of the engine may have become "tired". It had received a repaint or re varnish in 1975, and since then another much more significant overhaul, (I don't know on what date) including an (evidently) failed attempt to return it to steam, (when a cracked cylinder was discovered) and only after that, even more parts have gone missing!

I still cannot help feeling that, while the time, effort and money were being spent on it while at the NRM, unfortunately, no one at any of those opportune moments seemed to be aware of previous errors, and unwittingly ended up compounding them!

Pete.

 

[AJC]

I don't think we should be too harsh on the NRM. The loco could easily have been scrapped and at least they saved it. To expect them to restore it to original condition might be a expecting a bit too much. I'm sure locos of this type went through many changes in their working life.

Keep up the good work Pete,

Tim

Especially given the size of their collections, varying curatorial practices over the last 60 or so years (I think this particular loco was at Clapham before York, right?), the vagaries of funding, and so on.

Adam

 

[Mike W]

On the subject of the NRM, I suspect this loco was last "restored" before the NRM existed and not a priority to re-do. Also there's the question of whether they know exactly what it did look like, and when? i.e. could they do a proper job even if they wanted to?

Maybe, eventually, Peter's observations and notes will provide the full answer and can be presented to them as evidence.

Mike
(still love this thread - followed it from the start and its awesome!)

 

[Peter Insole]

Thank you for taking the trouble to reply Overseer. That is indeed what I had expected to find too, and was perhaps rather surprised to discover that, despite what the photographs might suggest, the material is definitely not either iron or steel. The regulator and reverser are however, and when standing on that footplate, the comparison was easier to determine.

I was continuing to consider Dave's idea of the red colour effect, and when looking again at the B&W image in question, (of Midget) I get the impression that the handle was distinctly shorter, and a bit larger in circumference than any of the metal ones shown in either drawings or other pictures.

Was this particular engine fitted at this time with a little wooden handle perchance?

I did a search last night, and found a couple of examples of vacuum brake valves similarly equipped, and the colour photographs of both indicated that the very fine grained hardwood was of a distinctly reddish shade! I do get the strong impression that Midget might have been unique though!

It matters not the tiniest jot if I choose to take any liberties with my own model, but I would be so much happier feeling that the particular conundrum of identifying the original materials was cracked!

Pete.