Finney 7 LNER A4

Discussion in 'Area 51' started by P A D, 1 October 2018.

  1. Paul Cambridge

    Paul Cambridge Western Thunderer

    Having never been on an A4 footplate, I’m intrigued by the elevated floor sections, especially in front of the firebox door. That looks more of a hindrance for the fireman.
    Love the detail on this model Peter. An A4 is not something I would build, but this is a fascinating thread.
    P A D likes this.
  2. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    Thanks Paul.

    As to the elevated floor sections being a hindrance (to the fireman I assume), I would tend to agree. However, I've never read any negative comments about the cab layout of Gresley's Pacifics. I wonder why he didn't go for cantilevering the footplate off the boiler and dispensing with the fall plate. A completely uncluttered and rigid floor. Just what the fireman needs. Wonder why nobody tried that? ;)
  3. mickoo

    mickoo Western Thunderer

    The steam manifold is near 8 feet off the cab floor, the dias is 9" which brings the handles within working range for most statures.

    The firehole door is just shy of 3 feet from the floor, perfect height for firing. The engine is designed to be fired from the right, the firemans right foot goes in the gap between the firebox dias and the firemans dias, his left foot toward the rear to balance, hence the gap between the dias. The heat guard on the right is normally swung wider when firing.
    Last edited: 17 January 2019
    BR Tony and Paul Cambridge like this.
  4. Paul Cambridge

    Paul Cambridge Western Thunderer

    Thanks Mickoo. What about other locomotives with large fireboxes, such as the Stanier Pacifics? Is the manifold high up out of reach? To my shame I’ve never seen any of the survivors in steam. Must get our more!

    Come to think of it, I’ve only ever seen 6402, none of the Coronations. Think that must go on the bucket list.
  5. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    Many thanks Mick.
    Now it all makes sense, but where do you find all this stuff.

    Ps . I still think cantilever footplate and no fall plate would work. What could go wrong with that? :p:p
  6. mickoo

    mickoo Western Thunderer

    Y'all welcome, just one other small point, the centre dias is actually removable and not fitted to the drivers dias as seen above, it should actually fit between the pipework for the injector valves. This does reduce the space on the right for the firemans foot but the principle is still valid. to be fair the dias isn't very deep (12-14" or something) and you could still reach the fire hole if your foot was hard up against the edge.

    The Coronation is a different type of firebox, specifically the grate, the Gresley firebox is a gradual slope from rear to front (heel to toe) and has a tall back, eight feet or more. The Coronation has a flat grate initially and then a much steeper front section, as such the height at the rear is 7'-2", about a foot shorter than the Gresley backhead, on top of that the Coronation floor is raised another 10" above the heel of the firebox, that'll give you roughly 6' - 4" from floor to top of backhead. It does mean that the firehole door is much lower, under two feet off the floor, I presume this is more in line with the firing technique used for the stepped grate than the one used for the constant sloped grate.

    My mate who was a fireman at Cricklewood preferred the LMS/BR style with the lower firehole, Black fives, Jubilees, 8Fs and 9F's, I suppose it's apples and pears.

    I've got a couple of Coronations to build shortly and really looking forward to it and finally getting a Crewe North engine.

    Cantilever footplates have their own issues, something to do with airflow underneath them creating a vacuum or eddies which basically fill the cab with any bit of grit or dirt you can find in a mini tornado, hence the fitting of curtains to Britannias and Standard fives to prevent this, it only happened at higher speeds. The same effect was present on the A4, Peppercorn A1 and un rebuilt Bullieds if the curtain between cab top and tender got torn or removed then the cab was inhospitable at higher speeds. There's a tale in one of the Townsend books of the up Elizabethan loosing the roof cover at high speed north of York, the driver ended up making a large brake application to reduce speed as the crew were basically being shot blasted in the cab, the engine limped to York where it was exchanged.

    The problem was mitigated on the A3 by lowering the streamlined fairing on the top of the tender front, though not as prone as engines with V cabs it was still unpleasant when coupled to high sided tenders, dropping the middle (crown) of the tender front fairing broke the slipstream and vacuum effect and cleared the cab.

    Anyway, enough digression.
  7. adrian

    adrian Flying Squad

    certainly not! It's all grist to mill so thanks for posting. :thumbs:
  8. Paul Cambridge

    Paul Cambridge Western Thunderer

    Thank you Mickoo for taking the time to answer my queries. As Adrian says, it’s all grist to the mill. I certainly make models as I have a keen interest in the prototype, which I suspect most, if not all WT’ers share. Knowing how the prototype is built and operates makes me appreciate the detail that PAD (Peter) and yourself add to the models you build and show on here.
    simond and adrian like this.
  9. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    On the contrary Mick, most illuminating as allways.

    On photos of the backplate I noticed a valve/tap thingy that is not included in the kit, so I knocked one up by cutting off part of a spare water gauge and adding the handle from a spare from the MOK 4MT. Here it is ready to go on.

    Here it is on place.

    This is the completed backplate.

    And with the roof showing the cab gauges.

    And in the cab. The seats have also been added but the fall plate is just loose for now. 20190118_182242.jpg
    On the left, the vacuum ejector is now added.

    So the cab inner is now completed.

    Here are some views with the roof on.



    And from the sides.

    It's important to line up the vacuum ejector with the ejector pipe.

    I haven't decided what to do regarding the cab/tender doors yet, but apart from putting in the motor and pick ups, it's about ready for painting. As with the Finney A3, although one or two details have been added/scratch built, it is an excellent kit and an absolute joy to build. Even easier than the A3 as the resin casting takes hours of work out of the process. That said, from my point of view those are hours of building I would have enjoyed, so from a perverse point of view, maybe not such good value. Yeah, I know, weird. :confused:

  10. Genghis

    Genghis Western Thunderer

    If you want hours of work, try the Bullied Light Pacific. It's another joy to build, but there is a lot to it!
  11. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    Hi David,
    Yes I read your build as well as Mick Roffe's and Tony Geary's latest. Looks like hours and hours of fun, but I prefer rebuild Bulleids. Still I may weaken.

    I don't have anything against resin castings of the Finney quality, but I'm more than happy to build from etchings as with the A3 or 4MT for example, when everything fits.

    Rob Pulham likes this.
  12. Genghis

    Genghis Western Thunderer

    I blame teh splel chuequer
  13. mickoo

    mickoo Western Thunderer

    I just write BLP, problem solved ;)
  14. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    Predictive text is creating a lot of bullying on the forum today. :)

    Had a few minutes at the bench this afternoon and added some strips to the tops of the cab sides, for increased area for gluing the roof on after painting and glazing. I taped the roof on then with the body on its side placed the strip against the roof and top edge and quickly tack soldered at the outer end. I then did the same on the other side, removed the tape and the roof and then fully soldered the length of the strips.

    After cleaning up I had a brief moment when I thought I may have "locked" the backplate out of the cab, as it was not something I had considered. However, it slots in and out nicely.

    With the roof on, you can see the strips from this low angle, but with the tender in place they won't be noticeable. I'll do the same on the A3. Originally the tray above the fire door was only super glued in place, as did not feel like soldering those tiny brackets. However after knocking it off for the 4th time, I marked te position, drilled two 0.5mm holes and soldered some 0.5mm brass rods into the holes from the rear. The tray was then soldered to the rods which were then trimmed and filed back to the edge of the tray. 20190119_172716.jpg
    BR Tony, Ian_C, Pencarrow and 10 others like this.
  15. Steph Dale

    Steph Dale Western Thunderer

    Hehe. Groan. And at least one terrible pun it would appear... :D

  16. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    Hahaha. :D
  17. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    Since completing the back plate as per the instructions, I'm not happy with the smaller hand wheels on the steam manifold. These are simply small washers so no spoke detail. 20190118_202805.jpg

    Have searched on the internet for A4 cab photos, illustrations of the surviving A4s are plentiful. There are detail differences between them all and I'm not suggesting any are definitive of the cabs in the late 50s, but I think replacing the smaller handwheels will improve the appearance. I think this is Union of South Africa.

    And this, is Bittern.
    I'll start delving into the spares box.

    Cheers ,
    BR Tony, mswjr, chrisb and 5 others like this.
  18. mswjr

    mswjr Western Thunderer

    PAD, Fantastic Workmanship, I do like looking at your builds, As this one is almost finished,Can i ask what are you thinking of doing next.
    Thanks Garry
  19. Yorkshire Dave

    Yorkshire Dave Western Thunderer

    Just admiring the latest photo of the exquisite model cab interior... To really gild the lily the 'hand grab' at the bottom of the regulator handles could have their corners rounded to remove the 'squareness' and the (dare I say :oops: ) the cusp removing from the top part.

    Chair spinning as one heads for the door....:eek:
  20. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    Aye up , good job that comment came from a Yorkshireman and not a Lancashire Len, or there'd a been trouble at t'mill! ;)

    It's a fair comment Dave. When you see it in the flesh it's not so obvious, but I'll give it some attention when I swap those tiny handwheels. More in need of attention is the right hand gauge glass, which will be smoothed also.

    Thanks Gary. What's next is a lot of painting for my brother of various items that I've been promising to do for him for a while.
    mswjr likes this.