7mm Heybridge Basin
- Thread starter Richard Gawler
- Start date
Osgood
Western Thunderer
Actuall
Well now - see here, post 584:
Was it you?
Well now - see here, post 584:
Mike G's Workspace.
It's been a good day today... Apart from the physio terrorist visit first thing this morning, then a final fitting for the wedding suit - which should be ready and finished in 2 weeks. So by 12:30 I was sat at the bench. I cleaned up the roof and sides yesterday evening. 1. Air vents then...
www.westernthunder.co.uk
Was it you?
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Richard Gawler
Western Thunderer
Perfect!
I have made myself a new rope. This one is three strands of thread plaited together and with a ring of n/s wire at each end.
This has just enough "body" to let it drop over a hook at the first attempt. I can keep fingers out of the way and I don't nudge the wagons.
The new rope is 10 mm longer than the first one. This manouevre helps to place a wagon at the far end of the headshunt. It is a bit contrived to pull the wagon beyond the point blades but it's good to keep options open. Replacement water column underway.
Osgood
Western Thunderer
Would make more sense - a big loop that could go over either a dumb buffer or a conventional buffer stock (or a drawhook if used from the front).
Photos of rope shunting (for one's own education) are not easily to find.
Rob R
Western Thunderer
Chain, shunting, Trowland for the use of.....
Apologies for the poor photo.
It's early and the sun isn't coming out today........
Richard Gawler
Western Thunderer
If the rope or chain was hooked onto a horse hook on the wagon, this would make for a shallower angle without having to attach at the far end. Some of my wagons have suitably robust horse hooks, but they would be very fiddly to use.
Cuba 1998: There is a cable shunt at the beginning of this video, sadly we don't see how the cable was tied onto the loco.
I suspect a woven steel cable would be a bit early for 1890s Heybridge. Maybe a rope would be preferred to a chain because it has a bit more "give" in it? I can keep searching for rope, chain and cable . . .
I suspect a woven steel cable would be a bit early for 1890s Heybridge. Maybe a rope would be preferred to a chain because it has a bit more "give" in it? I can keep searching for rope, chain and cable . . .
PhilH
Western Thunderer
A chain is more likely, I don't think you'd want any "give" in it.
Chain shunting was used extensively in Dinorwic Quarry as the steam locos were confined to the 'main lines' laid in bullhead rail whereas most of the sidings were laid in flat bar rail.
Many of the locos had brackets with shackles fixed to the outside edges of the rear buffer beams for that purpose, such as GEORGE B carrying the actual haulage chain with hooks at each end on the cab backplate.
Chain haulage in operation at Llechwedd Slate Quarry, used here because the overhead wire is confined to just one line of the loop. The chain is attached here to the front of the wagons whereas for a diverging line the chain would more likely be attached to the rear.
Chain shunting was used extensively in Dinorwic Quarry as the steam locos were confined to the 'main lines' laid in bullhead rail whereas most of the sidings were laid in flat bar rail.
Many of the locos had brackets with shackles fixed to the outside edges of the rear buffer beams for that purpose, such as GEORGE B carrying the actual haulage chain with hooks at each end on the cab backplate.
Chain haulage in operation at Llechwedd Slate Quarry, used here because the overhead wire is confined to just one line of the loop. The chain is attached here to the front of the wagons whereas for a diverging line the chain would more likely be attached to the rear.
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Richard Gawler
Western Thunderer
I suspect all of the rope shunts at Heybridge Basin will involve hauling one or two wagons into a siding. Such shunts will always be on diverging tracks, so I have recreated the two shunts from my first attempt using a rope attached to the back of the last wagon.
This is a 320 mm cord representing a 45 foot rope.
Photo immediately before moving the points.
Switching the frog polarity is now necessary before or at the same time as moving the points. If delayed very much, a rail-powered loco will create a short circuit when it reaches the frog.
The wagons still end up clear of the fouling point.
After setting back, the rope looks likely to lie across one rail but not both. So if the rope was a metal chain, I don't foresee a problem with shorts.
This is the arrangement for working the goods siding.
Tieing the rope onto the back of the wagon looks so much more elegant.
simond
Western Thunderer
Richard,
I do agree, the angle between the track and the rope in the earlier pictures accentuated the divergence. That’s much less evident now, but I can see your issue with the frog polarity. Maybe R/C is the answer until,@Giles patents his 7mm scale working shunting horse.
I guess the other option is the shunting tractor, but perhaps not on a little branch, and of course, you’d want inset track. I recall something rather like this in Birkenhead docks as a kid - an excellent R/C project???
Edit - thread here - farm tractors as shunters - includes at least one picture of a shunting tractor at at Ipswitch, so not a million miles away, and an LMS one at Liverpool, which might offer a suitable era.
cheers
Simon
I do agree, the angle between the track and the rope in the earlier pictures accentuated the divergence. That’s much less evident now, but I can see your issue with the frog polarity. Maybe R/C is the answer until,@Giles patents his 7mm scale working shunting horse.
I guess the other option is the shunting tractor, but perhaps not on a little branch, and of course, you’d want inset track. I recall something rather like this in Birkenhead docks as a kid - an excellent R/C project???
Edit - thread here - farm tractors as shunters - includes at least one picture of a shunting tractor at at Ipswitch, so not a million miles away, and an LMS one at Liverpool, which might offer a suitable era.
cheers
Simon
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Richard Gawler
Western Thunderer
The last few posts really do show how a forum (especially WT) is such a good place to help design or indeed refine a layout. Far better than copying other people's models. Thank you everyone.
To continue . . . I have an idea.
The Blue Point switch mechanism has a double-pole changeover switch. One pair of SPCO contacts are unused, and as far as I can tell they are break-before-make. Suppose I used them to generate a pulse every time I move the points, then I could use this pulse as an input to a state machine.
Initial condition
Action: press a momentary push button labelled 'Shunt'
Action: move the points
Action: return the points to their original location (always necessary to extract the loco)
Alternatively, go DCC and use one of those frog juicers to detect the short and set the frog accordingly. I have the bits and bobs to do this, but it spells the end for my HF coach lighting, and use of the layout as a test track for analogue models. I don't want to do this.
To continue . . . I have an idea.
The Blue Point switch mechanism has a double-pole changeover switch. One pair of SPCO contacts are unused, and as far as I can tell they are break-before-make. Suppose I used them to generate a pulse every time I move the points, then I could use this pulse as an input to a state machine.
Initial condition
DEFAULT
the turnout operates in the conventional way, with the frog polarity switched to suit the route
Action: press a momentary push button labelled 'Shunt'
a LED lights up
READY
the state machine is primed
< the rope shunt begins >
Action: move the points
the state machine operates a relay
SHUNT
the polarity of the frog is reversed
< the rope shunt continues to completion >
Action: return the points to their original location (always necessary to extract the loco)
the relay releases
the LED is extinguished
DEFAULT
the turnout operates in the conventional way, with the frog polarity switched to suit the route
Alternatively, go DCC and use one of those frog juicers to detect the short and set the frog accordingly. I have the bits and bobs to do this, but it spells the end for my HF coach lighting, and use of the layout as a test track for analogue models. I don't want to do this.
Richard Gawler
Western Thunderer
I agree. Perhaps it was less widespread than some modellers imagine.
Trying to get a sense of proportion for rope shunting at Heybridge Basin I found a brief discussion on the subject on RMWeb. There is a post by Mike The Stationmaster worth quoting:
. . . [towing] usually involved an engine on one line attached to a wagon (or wagons) on another line by a rope (which in practice was often partially chain and partially rope) which was on the loco coupling hook at one end and in an appropriate place on the wagon on the other. Only ever used as far as I know when there was no alternative and I have only seen it done on an industrial site and to me it looked distinctly dodgy with far too many things ready to go wrong so I can quite understand why it was frowned on except where specially authorised.
Not to be confused with shunting using a capstan - which was also attached to the wagon(s) by a rope - which was fairly widespread and while it had its dangers was fairly safe when carried out by experienced staff.
- -
I suggest, Heybridge Basin was usually worked by a horse - Charlie. I imagine Charlie is poorly, and other methods must be found. This means towing to get wagons into the right place, and a pilot to assemble mixed trains.
Because Charlie is indisposed, the railway has borrowed ‘Lady Marion’ from the (equally fictional) railway at Bentall’s foundry. She does the job really well because she runs on a battery.
I had a go at towing using the Y14, everything worked out pretty well.
The train is too long to assemble on the layout, but the cut-down cassette is useful.
The ensemble still (just) clears the fouling point here.
For the headshunt, I will need a shorter rope or chain.
If the track-powered locos (especially, ‘Blackwater’ and ‘Heybridge’) are tasked to do towing I will try out a manual changeover switch on the frog first, and see how I get on. Then think about state machines and relays and generally making things complicated. But at the moment I'd rather do modelling.
Osgood
Western Thunderer
As ever it is all too easy to overlook what is right in front of us!
Shunting using chains
the shunting possibilities on my gauge 3 exhibition layout Lea Siding are limited, someone suggested I could use chains. Does anyone out there know where I can find photos of chain shunting? (and is that what it was called?) Were there rules governing how it was done?
www.westernthunder.co.uk
simond
Western Thunderer
My coach lights work on DC & DCC but I can’t turn them off, except by isolating the siding. They’re dim enough to not look odd in daylight, and bright enough to look nice if I dim the lights in the room.
I used a rectifier, and a capacitor (vertically in the toilet compartment) to drive LEDs in the coach roof. Capacitor avoids flicker. Some resistors for brightness control. “American bogie” so wheels on one bogie shorted on one side, and the other, the other, avoid pickup drag.
I think it’s all on my Porth Dinllaen thread on RMW but I guess the pictures have evaporated. I can post some next time I install lights in a coach.