Jordan
Mid-Western Thunderer
Bold added - 4mm?????
I'm worried at just how out of touch with the miniature scales you seem to be, Mick!!! 
Mickoo's American Modelling Empire
- Thread starter mickoo
- Start date
I'm worried at just how out of touch with the miniature scales you seem to be, Mick!!! 
Stephen
Western Thunderer
Would be a shame if you did give the o scale up, the 3D printed parts for the locos look really good, so must be satisfying to actually make a model not only unique, but also adding your own graft to it. However, having an o-scale layout of decent size to run long trains…….we’ll that’s a dilemma I also have….
Shunting planks have never really interested me, even with the ease of auto uncoupling kadees, and with my motley collection of 16 x AAR 1937 40ft box cars, that’s going to be some layout required to run that around…….the garden might be calling in the short term….!
I’m finding the lack of suppliers able to order/pre-order items the real pain……not even mentioning the daft import charges presently….
If you do decide to change scales……you have a purchaser for that brass ATSF 2-8-0 here…..!
cheers,
Stephen
Shunting planks have never really interested me, even with the ease of auto uncoupling kadees, and with my motley collection of 16 x AAR 1937 40ft box cars, that’s going to be some layout required to run that around…….the garden might be calling in the short term….!
I’m finding the lack of suppliers able to order/pre-order items the real pain……not even mentioning the daft import charges presently….
If you do decide to change scales……you have a purchaser for that brass ATSF 2-8-0 here…..!
cheers,
Stephen
mickoo
Western Thunderer
I won't get rid of my brass import range, those I classify as a collection and if desperate, utility bill reserve stock. Realistically where am I gong to run two Big Boys, two Challengers, two Overland 4-12-2's and a SP AC6 cab forward, let alone all the others. The one steam engine that I did briefly releasing was the ATSF 2-8-0 which doesn't fit into anything I do interest wise, but it's such a quaint looking little critter I've decided it can stay for a while.
The steam engines and brass imports are closer to the level of detail I'd like but even then I'd like more. It's the modern RTR that's lacking and even if you scratch build, pimp out and tart up, there's a dearth of available decals, there's a few for diesels but very little for rolling stock.
The problem with upgrading RTR is that you have to start so far back you end up with triggers broom and very little of the original left, such that you may as well scratch build.
Some one said to me that upgrading RTR is like putting lipstick on a pig, a phrase I often use now as it encapsulates the whole issue serious modelers have with modern US RTR, maybe I'm expecting too much.
In my space I can manage a GP38 or 40.....well I could if I can find decent models....or 60 (the Atlas 60 is actually quite good, probably one of the best 2R RTR models along with the MTH SD70ACe) with five or six box cars and some tanks, maybe two industries.
I've seen this in HO which is appealing and is about what I can mange in my space, a touch longer with an option of making it a stubby L at the far end with tight radius curves. The layout is called Gateway Industrial Park and is a very good less is more theme and is on the exhibition circuits now and again.
In HO I can achieve nearly 250% of the above in my space, in HOm which is another itch of mine I can get slightly more than this guy in Holland.
Three stations and some line running between, I have the option for more vertical depth as I'm not constricted by the sloping roof he has.
The real rub for me is the cost, the sale of one brass Big Boy would buy nearly all of that HOm stock in the station view. In short, O gauge is not a good bang for buck in my opinion.
I had the lovely opportunity to help and drive on Heyside on Sunday at Warley, initially the bay branch until I could be trusted and was proficient with the controllers and basic operations/interactions of all the other operators and then the inner loop.
It made me realise two things, big and wonderful as Heyside is it wasn't enough for me scenery wise, I wanted more expanse; second and most importantly, other operators were poking good mannered fun at the child in me running around driving trains, quite frankly, trains going round in circles is bloody good fun.
Whilst I think I'd enjoy switching with handful of well detailed models and stock I don't think it's scratch all the itches, I also don't think a reasonably HO layout, US or Euro would either and I'm sure a big multi layer HOm probably won't either. However, I think I would have the most fun with the smaller scales.
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Stephen
Western Thunderer
SP AC6!?! what would you need, maybe forty box car for a realistic train length? No denying that would look pretty damn special! I think I’ve missed the boat to invest in anything like that - although I do keep an eye on the Glacier Park website to see whether they do decide to do another run of SP 2-8-0 or 2-8-2s in due course.
Personally the end goal for me has always been about having somewhere to run the models, at realistic lengths, at realistic speeds and in an environment which isn’t a flat baseboard. There is a lot to be said about the exploits of County Gate and Cliffhanger where the trains are part of the scenery….and I’d be happy with a twin track loop in undulating countryside….maybe with the formation set into the side of an embankment so there is some physical presence of scenery. Will I get that end goal……don’t know…..space isn’t an issue, it’s time that is the problem.
I like the idea of being able to sit back and potentially just watch two trains pass, semi recreating a time which I’ve only seen in books. As you say - simplicity, but bloody good fun…..especially if accompanied by a good ale or single malt, and a few of the Argo vinyl recordings (Whistling Through Dixie was good).
Putting Lip stick on a pig…..Jim Henson made money out of it!
Hopefully see some photos of Gateway Industrial Park populated with numerous articulated steam locos in due course?!?
Cheers,
Stephen
Personally the end goal for me has always been about having somewhere to run the models, at realistic lengths, at realistic speeds and in an environment which isn’t a flat baseboard. There is a lot to be said about the exploits of County Gate and Cliffhanger where the trains are part of the scenery….and I’d be happy with a twin track loop in undulating countryside….maybe with the formation set into the side of an embankment so there is some physical presence of scenery. Will I get that end goal……don’t know…..space isn’t an issue, it’s time that is the problem.
I like the idea of being able to sit back and potentially just watch two trains pass, semi recreating a time which I’ve only seen in books. As you say - simplicity, but bloody good fun…..especially if accompanied by a good ale or single malt, and a few of the Argo vinyl recordings (Whistling Through Dixie was good).
Putting Lip stick on a pig…..Jim Henson made money out of it!
Hopefully see some photos of Gateway Industrial Park populated with numerous articulated steam locos in due course?!?
Cheers,
Stephen
JasonD
Western Thunderer
Be careful Mick ... modelling railways ... just when you think you've cracked making a choice along comes Sandy River in 16mm, Central American MLW diesels, O-gauge Dapol 66s and HIA hoppers, VR X Class chop-nose, etc, etc. I was surprised upset aghast at your anti-O rant, but instead of wittering on, I'll leave it to Charlie B and Lucy:
But be sure to have fun
Jason
But be sure to have fun
Jason
Focalplane
Western Thunderer
I am still not entirely sure about SP in HO, but with no track laid should wait and see. The detail in freight cars from companies like Kadee makes my older Accurail stock look a bit toy like but I do intend to invoke Pelle Søeburg’s weathering techniques to mask that. The Athearn Genesis range is superb (I only have the UP mikado to judge). Again some weathering will not hurt, particularly the boiler, wheels and cylinders.
I agree with Stephen about watching two long trains pass by each other, a slow drag and a named passenger train. But with single line working the alternative of a refuge loop is almost as good.
Covid-19 still has me fatigued so nothing is happening at the moment in the Motor House where the modules are being assembled - much too cold!
I agree with Stephen about watching two long trains pass by each other, a slow drag and a named passenger train. But with single line working the alternative of a refuge loop is almost as good.
Covid-19 still has me fatigued so nothing is happening at the moment in the Motor House where the modules are being assembled - much too cold!
mickoo
Western Thunderer
I'm not anti-O, far from it, it has it's place in my collections, just not front and centre anymore, I can't get what I want from it without a lot of hard work and expenditure or more space. Compare MTH or Atlas RTR with Lenz/MBW for German stock or Dapol/Heljan for UK. All similarly priced but the US stuff is awfully crude in comparison when it comes to fidelity and detail.
mickoo
Western Thunderer
It does depend on what you want, SP or UP in HO I think is achievable, as you note, Pelle Søeburg achieved it.
JasonD
Western Thunderer
The elephant in the room for Nth American O-scale is Lionel. The MTH founder worked for and fell out with them, so that defined his priorities. Atlas had a good reputation in HO and when somebody suggested O, they revisited their first try with Roco of capitalising on the 3-rail market with near-to-scale models for 2- and 3-railers, but made in China. It certainly shocked Lionel and MTH, but China eventually pulled the carpet out from under Atlas. The only other major RTR offering was brass, triggered by World War II and subject to the price ladder of quality items.
Luckily I started on Nth Am O in the early 70s, long before China. Work and family visits to the USA and Canada, as well as a loft layout shouting for stock, did the trick. Etched brass kits and importing followed and luckily stopped a few years ago.
Jason
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Jordan
Mid-Western Thunderer
It's the 3-rail legacy, even on 2-rail models.
Mindyou, I'm equally wary of putting "Heljan", "O" & "fidelity" all in the same sentence....
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Fair pointMindyou, I'm equally wary of putting "Heljan", "O" & "fidelity" all in the same sentence....
richard carr
Western Thunderer
I think with US O scale you just need to pick your models carefully, that applies equally to locos and freight cars. The biggest problem though is space, you need lots of it, and most people in the UK just don't have it. The 2 crossovers I have just installed on mine take up an enormous amount of space, thank goodness you can have a 5 foot radius curve !
Mick, I can see the attraction of US HO, there are some lovely models available rtr, and space is so much less of an issue
I think Heljan are finally getting the message about accuracy, thankfully Dapol have done a pretty good job from the off.
Richard
Mick, I can see the attraction of US HO, there are some lovely models available rtr, and space is so much less of an issue
I think Heljan are finally getting the message about accuracy, thankfully Dapol have done a pretty good job from the off.
Richard
Dog Star
Western Thunderer
True, although how much the meaning of the words upsets your sensitivity is dependent upon how you perceive the overall impression of the model. For example, take the emerging rant on RMWeb over the vertical depth of the cab windows on the new Class 58... does the issue matter?
* yes, the issue is a real pain if one concentrates solely on the windows;
* no, do not care if I look at the HJ product as a complete model, with weathering to more accurately represent an in-service prototype and at the head of a coal train made up of contemporary hoppers.
OK, the preceding comment does represent a phase shift in my mindset relating to UK prototypes and is being driven by Peter's (@Spike) expanding fleet of HJ 37/4s which have been weathered (by reference to prototype West Highland photos) and fitted with sound.
regards, Graham
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Well the scale bubbles continue to wage a mental war so rather than give in or pay much attention to them I decided I'd buy some more, I mean why the hell not.
It was a job lot and much of it I don't want or need...that is one aspect that has changed mind, I'm more selective (marginally).....but I had to take what I didn't want to get what I did want.
I've long been after a decent GP38 or GP40, the RTR offerings do not do it for me and a few years back I did some etches, still have them and tinker with them here and there.
Both are Overland models and both were short runs back in the day, I have to say I've never seen one in any of the popular sites or on layouts to be fair. Neither are factory painted and both are a little tatty in that respect, so a full repaint is certainly in order.
The GP38-2 will go back as Union Pacific and it's a nice clean model and a good basis to add some details to as and when.
The GP40 (not checked to see if it's a Dash 2 yet or what's needed to make it a Dash 2) is a non dynamic version....never been that keen on the slim hood models, always preferring the dynamic bulge look.
This'll get stripped at some point and may go back as CSX or CN, both of which might require a few tweaks.
Both are in good mechanical condition and it looks like they have had the more modern (black metal) gearboxes fitted as neither suffer from the OMI Mazak rot (light grey gearboxes) which often occurs. Both are staggeringly slow even at top speed, I tested them against my GP30 (more on that front later in the week all being well) and that was equally as slow; maybe that's an OMI thing? Not that you need fast if your switching, but none of them are that smooth at slow speed so might need some lubricant and running in.
Finally I have a decent GP38 and GP40 to move forward with, it's been along time coming and I didn't think it'd ever happen to be fair; these will both join the queue for future works which hopefully I'll make a dent in once I've cleared a lot of baggage collected over time away.
It was a job lot and much of it I don't want or need...that is one aspect that has changed mind, I'm more selective (marginally
).....but I had to take what I didn't want to get what I did want.I've long been after a decent GP38 or GP40, the RTR offerings do not do it for me and a few years back I did some etches, still have them and tinker with them here and there.
Both are Overland models and both were short runs back in the day, I have to say I've never seen one in any of the popular sites or on layouts to be fair. Neither are factory painted and both are a little tatty in that respect, so a full repaint is certainly in order.
The GP38-2 will go back as Union Pacific and it's a nice clean model and a good basis to add some details to as and when.
The GP40 (not checked to see if it's a Dash 2 yet or what's needed to make it a Dash 2) is a non dynamic version....never been that keen on the slim hood models, always preferring the dynamic bulge look.
This'll get stripped at some point and may go back as CSX or CN, both of which might require a few tweaks.
Both are in good mechanical condition and it looks like they have had the more modern (black metal) gearboxes fitted as neither suffer from the OMI Mazak rot (light grey gearboxes) which often occurs. Both are staggeringly slow even at top speed, I tested them against my GP30 (more on that front later in the week all being well) and that was equally as slow; maybe that's an OMI thing? Not that you need fast if your switching, but none of them are that smooth at slow speed so might need some lubricant and running in.
Finally I have a decent GP38 and GP40 to move forward with, it's been along time coming and I didn't think it'd ever happen to be fair; these will both join the queue for future works which hopefully I'll make a dent in once I've cleared a lot of baggage collected over time away.
Big Train James
Western Thunderer
Based on the details, it's a straight gp40. Lack of rear overhang on the cab roof, left side sub-base doors split at the front face of the cab, cap top radiator fans, no horizontal stiffening ribs on the blower duct housing, that sort of thing. Appears to represent an ex-Rock Island unit, which would explain the lack of dynamics. I don't think UP ordered any non-dynamic units themselves, all were acquired from other roads like Missouri Pacific.
Mick, with your focus on western roads, non-dynamic units make no sense for you. Non-dynamics were typically found on midwestern roads, normally those with relatively few grades. Without grades, and without the db's working at lower speeds, there was no benefit to dynamic braking for the most part. Exceptions could be found of course, such as Missouri Pacific units that were run in pool service with the DRGW hauling coal out of western Colorado and Utah.
Now if they are to be employed on a switching type layout, then the lack of dynamics has no bearing. However, I do tend to agree that a unit without the dynamic brake blister is aesthetically less pleasing.
Mick, with your focus on western roads, non-dynamic units make no sense for you. Non-dynamics were typically found on midwestern roads, normally those with relatively few grades. Without grades, and without the db's working at lower speeds, there was no benefit to dynamic braking for the most part. Exceptions could be found of course, such as Missouri Pacific units that were run in pool service with the DRGW hauling coal out of western Colorado and Utah.
Now if they are to be employed on a switching type layout, then the lack of dynamics has no bearing. However, I do tend to agree that a unit without the dynamic brake blister is aesthetically less pleasing.
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JasonD
Western Thunderer
Nice acquisitions, I'll go for a 38-2 and an older 40 it's that little inspection window on the other side that settles it. With rrpicturearchives.net not being well right now, the first pic I found was a MoPac 40 repaint: no little window, leaf spring Blombergs (not 100% clue) ... er, headlights up next to numbers not on nose if it is a correctly repainted repaint.
Jason
Jason
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Well the big green box does say GP40 (though sometimes that's not always whats in there when buying from an unknown collection) and the differences put you into that proverbial quandary of possible loss of value if reworked. The changes are easy enough and no, 3D parts are not an option (I have a growing list of projects for that), it'd all have to be brass, but cutting metal is not something I take lightly with my green box collection.
For me, non dynamic doesn't suit the UP paint scheme, it's better with CN or CSX but I've not yet found any CSX without dynamics, not GP40's as yet anyway, I've not checked BN/BNSF as yet and /I suspect any GP40's were long gone by the period (modern) I'm trying to aim for.
Big Train James
Western Thunderer
Retired from the UP in October of 1991. "Modern" can include a long time when it comes to trains, so that may still fit your era.
As far as non-dynamic units for other roads, pickings are slim for the ones you've listed. A shallow dive shows RF&P gp40's in the 100 series without dynamic brakes, and those did go to CSX in the 6800 series. I am seeing photos noted as taken as late as 1999 for these units. One of them, CSX 6859, nee RFP 125, shows as rebuilt by Morrison-Knudsen and sold to UP in 1997 as UP 2515, consequently renumbered in 2003 to UP 1015. I haven't seen photos as UP 2515, but there are photos as UP 1015 as late as 2005. Unfortunately, there are some odd details added during the rebuild, and the unit has had dynamic breaks added at some point, and the unit has been derated to a 2000hp roots blown prime mover. It is, or was, essentially a gp38-2 at that point.
I don't think any of the roads that were absorbed into BN/BNSF had units without dynamics. Not sure about CN. If non-dynamic equipped units made it onto any of those rosters, it most likely would have been as purchased secondhand units or rebuilds.
As far as non-dynamic units for other roads, pickings are slim for the ones you've listed. A shallow dive shows RF&P gp40's in the 100 series without dynamic brakes, and those did go to CSX in the 6800 series. I am seeing photos noted as taken as late as 1999 for these units. One of them, CSX 6859, nee RFP 125, shows as rebuilt by Morrison-Knudsen and sold to UP in 1997 as UP 2515, consequently renumbered in 2003 to UP 1015. I haven't seen photos as UP 2515, but there are photos as UP 1015 as late as 2005. Unfortunately, there are some odd details added during the rebuild, and the unit has had dynamic breaks added at some point, and the unit has been derated to a 2000hp roots blown prime mover. It is, or was, essentially a gp38-2 at that point.
I don't think any of the roads that were absorbed into BN/BNSF had units without dynamics. Not sure about CN. If non-dynamic equipped units made it onto any of those rosters, it most likely would have been as purchased secondhand units or rebuilds.