Mickoo's BR modelling
- Thread starter mickoo
- Start date
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Well, that was something different!
Nice to see all six A4s together, managed to get some nice detail shots of valve gear and nether regions, they're uploading to drop box as we speak, will drop a note in that thread when uploaded.
Picked off virtually all the drawings I needed from Microfiche and yes the LNER shunters are in there under drawing number Q121, parts 1&2
Left early with the idea of stopping off on the ECML here and there, started at Colton Jct....and ended there, what an excellent photo location and busy as anything I've ever seen, sun was out (30°) and met some nice local guys with all the griff, so that's all good with me, I'm not fussy, I'll take photos of anything LOL.
Nice to see all six A4s together, managed to get some nice detail shots of valve gear and nether regions, they're uploading to drop box as we speak, will drop a note in that thread when uploaded.
Picked off virtually all the drawings I needed from Microfiche and yes the LNER shunters are in there under drawing number Q121, parts 1&2
Left early with the idea of stopping off on the ECML here and there, started at Colton Jct....and ended there, what an excellent photo location and busy as anything I've ever seen, sun was out (30°) and met some nice local guys with all the griff, so that's all good with me, I'm not fussy, I'll take photos of anything LOL.
Tim Humphreys ex Mudhen
Western Thunderer
Mick,
With respect I think you have missed the point about the gathering of A4s. The purpose is to celebrate the 75th anniversary of Mallard setting the world speed record for steam. To get the other five remaining A4s to join the celebration was a great idea and no party would be any fun without guests. The NRM had record numbers for this event and the crowds contributed to a fantastic party atmosphere. I spent just over three hours looking at, climbing on and photographing the stars of the show, not to mention having to push 18 children aside to get a front row seat in the simulator
To make the day a liitle more comfortable I took advantage of a special offer on train tickets and travelled in air conditioned 1st class comfort from Bury St Edmunds changing at Peterborough for £48.00 return; this offer included food and drink each way including booze on the way back. Journey time was near enough 3 hours and no hassle. Yes, getting photographs of just the locomotives was difficult but there are 4 of the in the UK that can be visited at almost any time and detailed pictures taken in comfort. Pictures to follow
Tim
With respect I think you have missed the point about the gathering of A4s. The purpose is to celebrate the 75th anniversary of Mallard setting the world speed record for steam. To get the other five remaining A4s to join the celebration was a great idea and no party would be any fun without guests. The NRM had record numbers for this event and the crowds contributed to a fantastic party atmosphere. I spent just over three hours looking at, climbing on and photographing the stars of the show, not to mention having to push 18 children aside to get a front row seat in the simulator
To make the day a liitle more comfortable I took advantage of a special offer on train tickets and travelled in air conditioned 1st class comfort from Bury St Edmunds changing at Peterborough for £48.00 return; this offer included food and drink each way including booze on the way back. Journey time was near enough 3 hours and no hassle. Yes, getting photographs of just the locomotives was difficult but there are 4 of the in the UK that can be visited at almost any time and detailed pictures taken in comfort. Pictures to followTim
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Tim,
I'm not sure I think I did LOL, or else I wouldn't have gone however my original dialogue could be mis-read, since edited. However, it would be fair to say we both went for different reasons 
Equally, I don't think that once they're all split up your ever going to get the access we had at NRM on the four that remain in this country, certainly not the working ones, no self respecting preservation location is going to let you get that close and take photos underneath...for example, it does of course depend on what you want to photo and I accept that what I wanted was out of the norm, I was only interested in the motion, frames and associated fittings and Mallard is hopeless for that task being fully dressed so to speak
The train would have been nice, but costs more from Ipswich (not sure how much) and double for two and impossible to stop off at Colton, Arksey or Nene Valley, last two aborted due to staying longer than intended at Colton, I didn't just go to NRM I intended to go elsewhere en-route back.
I enjoyed my day out but enjoyed train spotting at Colton more than the hustle and bustle at NRM. I really enjoy taking pictures and Colton and a few other recent line side visits have made me re evaluate several interests and aspects in my hobbies.
Look forward to the pictures
I'm not sure I think I did LOL, or else I wouldn't have gone
however my original dialogue could be mis-read, since edited. However, it would be fair to say we both went for different reasons Equally, I don't think that once they're all split up your ever going to get the access we had at NRM on the four that remain in this country, certainly not the working ones, no self respecting preservation location is going to let you get that close and take photos underneath...for example, it does of course depend on what you want to photo and I accept that what I wanted was out of the norm, I was only interested in the motion, frames and associated fittings and Mallard is hopeless for that task being fully dressed so to speak
The train would have been nice, but costs more from Ipswich (not sure how much) and double for two and impossible to stop off at Colton, Arksey or Nene Valley, last two aborted due to staying longer than intended at Colton, I didn't just go to NRM I intended to go elsewhere en-route back.
I enjoyed my day out but enjoyed train spotting at Colton more than the hustle and bustle at NRM. I really enjoy taking pictures and Colton and a few other recent line side visits have made me re evaluate several interests and aspects in my hobbies.
Look forward to the pictures
ZiderHead
Western Thunderer
Its well worth sniffing around for these deals if you can book ahead and can avoid peak times, I hardly ever travel by rail but the last few times Ive snagged First class tickets cheaper than the Second departing either side of them. I just wish you could get the same kind of deals on air travel ...
Fully Agree - they saved BR's 'Bacon' well & truly.
Indeed and as far as railways go, as the well known US Railroader Don Ball Jnr. put it - as long as we are talking steel flanges on steel rails then its interesting!
Regards,
DJP
mickoo
Western Thunderer
LOL, yes I'm a closet HST fan as well, always liked them since the first day I saw one at Peterborough in 80. I do miss the demonic scream of the Valentinas but the MTUs have a nice growl to them so they are still nice in my books.
The pan shots came out rather nice I think, getting the hang of it with more practice, they were shot into the sun as well so have had some post editing to bring out the dark shadows on the underframe. I've just noticed I didn't add the GC Adelante in their smart black with orange stripe, man those things shift!
mickoo
Western Thunderer
David, I agree, I'll take pictures of anything that moves, don't always post it up mind as most people are quite selective about their interests. Of the 15 or so people there at Colton I was the only one taking pictures of all the trains from different angles and styles, everyone else only took pictures of the Colas and GBRf trains, not even bothering with Freightliner or light locos, I thought that rather sad and a bit of a waste of a day really.
I wish I'd taken more photos in the 80s of DMUs, shunters, stations and infrastructure, becuase it has all gone now
Eastsidepilot
Western Thunderer
.........I wish I'd taken more photos in the 80s of DMUs, shunters, stations and infrastructure, becuase it has all gone now
......and in fifty years from now they'll be glad you took the photo's you have
Col.
oh and you'll be pushing me round the NRM in a wheel chair
.
mickoo
Western Thunderer
......and in fifty years from now they'll be glad you took the photo's you have
Col.
oh and you'll be pushing me round the NRM in a wheel chair
Possibly, even managed to take a photo of a Pacer, first time I've ever seen one, it made quite a contrast to all the other modern swish looking units around.
I doubt I'll be visiting the NRM in 50 years, in fact I'll be amazed I'm still cognitive in 50 years if alive at all!
mickoo
Western Thunderer
How many parts does it take to make a bonnet top?......a lot
And that's not all of them, and, truth be told, I'm still not 100% I like what I have, I've pondered these two covers for months now, brass or Plasticard, vents integral or thin pieces soldered on, back and forth, back and forth, so bit the bullet and finally got one made up with the vent integral, still needs thin fillets on the sides and a re-inforcing strip along the bottom of the vent cover.
Then I need to add the welded fillets over the top at each end and the centre beam and lifting eyes as well as pseudo rollers. Ironically for a change, it looks better in the photo than real life LOL Think I'll sleep on it a while and see if I keep what I've got.
I've been trying to keep things neat and square but looking at photos....well they're anything but
My vents do have a slot at the base, but when you see that the real think only sticks out 1¼" I'm beginning to wonder if a slot is worth it, mine clearly stick out too far.
And that's not all of them, and, truth be told, I'm still not 100% I like what I have, I've pondered these two covers for months now, brass or Plasticard, vents integral or thin pieces soldered on, back and forth, back and forth, so bit the bullet and finally got one made up with the vent integral, still needs thin fillets on the sides and a re-inforcing strip along the bottom of the vent cover.
Then I need to add the welded fillets over the top at each end and the centre beam and lifting eyes as well as pseudo rollers. Ironically for a change, it looks better in the photo than real life LOL Think I'll sleep on it a while and see if I keep what I've got.
I've been trying to keep things neat and square but looking at photos....well they're anything but
My vents do have a slot at the base, but when you see that the real think only sticks out 1¼" I'm beginning to wonder if a slot is worth it, mine clearly stick out too far.
Steph Dale
Western Thunderer
Mick,
I wasn't aware they had such a pronounced lip on the edge of the vent either...
By the way, I think I've found the ultimate detail for the underframe of your loco and yes (if you can work out what it is and where it goes), it is just about visible. Just pondering a purchase of a couple for stock:
Steph
I wasn't aware they had such a pronounced lip on the edge of the vent either...
By the way, I think I've found the ultimate detail for the underframe of your loco and yes (if you can work out what it is and where it goes), it is just about visible. Just pondering a purchase of a couple for stock:
Steph
mickoo
Western Thunderer
The lip is a reinforcing strip as the vent edge is very thin metal, also visible are the dogs for locking down the lids and securing them, not sure I'm going to go that far though, maybe a highly simplified version LOLMick,
I wasn't aware they had such a pronounced lip on the edge of the vent either...
By the way, I think I've found the ultimate detail for the underframe of your loco and yes (if you can work out what it is and where it goes), it is just about visible. Just pondering a purchase of a couple for stock:
Steph
Steph, that's the auxiliary or secondary twin pot (as opposed to the main much larger triple pot in the side boxes) compressor mounted on the loco centre line behind the air reservoirs. It’s not always fitted and even if fitted not always used, it depends on what type of work the loco normally performs and types of train, ours are not fitted or if fitted not wired in, but Tilburys is, that’s because they have to charge up long trains of pocket liners with their big air tanks on.
It’s only visible if you have the standard twin tank variant; some locos have three tanks up front underneath so then it’d not be visible.
Who makes them? As you say they are visible so might add them, I also want to change the MMP method of tank holding from the large tabs on the rear to correct rods, angle bracket and wooden former, fiddly but will look the part....I hope. There are a few different methods of attaching the tanks, need to check reference material to see which is which before proceeding.
Steph Dale
Western Thunderer
Mick,
Yep, you got it: Westinghouse DH25 compressor. With a few 0-6-0 shunters to do I'm tempted to order a short stack and keep 'em in stock. Also useful for multiple unit stock, of course...!
They're from Q-Car Company a US-based supplier of kits, parts and details for Streetcars. So the item is in 1:48 (useful for it to be slightly small for FS modellers!
). $2.40 a pop.
Steph
Yep, you got it: Westinghouse DH25 compressor. With a few 0-6-0 shunters to do I'm tempted to order a short stack and keep 'em in stock. Also useful for multiple unit stock, of course...!
They're from Q-Car Company a US-based supplier of kits, parts and details for Streetcars. So the item is in 1:48 (useful for it to be slightly small for FS modellers!
). $2.40 a pop.Steph
mickoo
Western Thunderer
That's not what the fitters call them!
The only expletive fit for publication was "nowt chance of em ever rusting!"
I often work on some arms length 'really' dirty stuff but the underside of an 08 makes what I work on fit for the Queens table!
Thanks for HU, I don't think anyone is going to get under there with their digital callipers to check the scale LOL So 1:48 will be fine I'm sure
.
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Just a small update on the 08, the original roof panel didn't do it for me, so off it came and joined it's previous attempts in the scrap brass bin. The major problem being the thinness of the material being used and the poor edges from the cuts to allow the vent to be bent out. So, new covers from thicker material were produced and duly fitted.....minus the vents.
The next step will be to cut slots in the covers to represent the hole under the vent and then add the vent cover on top and finally to blend in the cover with the existing material to produce a seamless join along the top....that's the plan!
I also wasn't happy with the noise from the motor gear box combo and deduced tat it may be from the vertically mounted motor and flywheel, the excess noise coming from when the motor was climbing the gear attached to the axle and thus trying to push the flywheel weight and armature upward, only a fraction mind but enough to cause a bit of gear noise. So the whole assemble was flipped 90° and laid in between the wheels, there's a small bridging plate across the bottom and between the motor and plate a small piece of foam. This reduced the noise significantly but the largest contributor to noise reduction was a piece of foam (temporary) rolled up and placed inside the bonnet, that made a massive difference to noise levels. Whilst not treating the issue at source, for that an ABC set up would suffice, it is quick and cheap.
The foam is that which has been discussed in the recent flooring thread, it's thin (3mm) but quite dense and used under laminate flooring, not the thick fibrous tiles you can use, though I do use both and often at the same time, this one being the top layer where water might ingress (shower rooms etc) as this foam is water resistant.
I also took the opportunity to replace the temporary wheel rim wipers with a MkII version, these run on the rim and tyre edge so should not pick any dirt up from the tread it's self, only time will tell if this proves satisfactory.
In other news, the weather, fantastic weather for photography this week, volumous clouds and high contrast skies have made photography a pleasure this week, Friday being one of the best. Violent thunder storms crept up from Essex and stalled over the estuary for an hour of more before finally letting go big time.
Storms building up and producing spectacular skies
Cap Harvey making a run for it before the storms let loose
Rain, lots of it!
Further developments, discussions at Sudbury at the last meet drifted back and forth on track issues and the lack of FB chairs and clips. In early BR diesel days much FB rail was laid on wooden sleepers and used a variety of chairs one being this 'staple' type.
Talk revolved around perhaps getting the chair 3D printed and the staples as an etch that is pushed up from below and then formed over to the correct shape.
It is acknowledged that the etch staple may not hold the track all of the time, so some additional adhesive between the rail base and chair might be prudent. Having 'discovered' some of these at work (as well as other types) I can now measure and see if the whole project is feasible.
The next step will be to cut slots in the covers to represent the hole under the vent and then add the vent cover on top and finally to blend in the cover with the existing material to produce a seamless join along the top....that's the plan!
I also wasn't happy with the noise from the motor gear box combo and deduced tat it may be from the vertically mounted motor and flywheel, the excess noise coming from when the motor was climbing the gear attached to the axle and thus trying to push the flywheel weight and armature upward, only a fraction mind but enough to cause a bit of gear noise. So the whole assemble was flipped 90° and laid in between the wheels, there's a small bridging plate across the bottom and between the motor and plate a small piece of foam. This reduced the noise significantly but the largest contributor to noise reduction was a piece of foam (temporary) rolled up and placed inside the bonnet, that made a massive difference to noise levels. Whilst not treating the issue at source, for that an ABC set up would suffice, it is quick and cheap.
The foam is that which has been discussed in the recent flooring thread, it's thin (3mm) but quite dense and used under laminate flooring, not the thick fibrous tiles you can use, though I do use both and often at the same time, this one being the top layer where water might ingress (shower rooms etc) as this foam is water resistant.
I also took the opportunity to replace the temporary wheel rim wipers with a MkII version, these run on the rim and tyre edge so should not pick any dirt up from the tread it's self, only time will tell if this proves satisfactory.
In other news, the weather, fantastic weather for photography this week, volumous clouds and high contrast skies have made photography a pleasure this week, Friday being one of the best. Violent thunder storms crept up from Essex and stalled over the estuary for an hour of more before finally letting go big time.
Storms building up and producing spectacular skies
Cap Harvey making a run for it before the storms let loose
Rain, lots of it!
Further developments, discussions at Sudbury at the last meet drifted back and forth on track issues and the lack of FB chairs and clips. In early BR diesel days much FB rail was laid on wooden sleepers and used a variety of chairs one being this 'staple' type.
Talk revolved around perhaps getting the chair 3D printed and the staples as an etch that is pushed up from below and then formed over to the correct shape.
It is acknowledged that the etch staple may not hold the track all of the time, so some additional adhesive between the rail base and chair might be prudent. Having 'discovered' some of these at work (as well as other types) I can now measure and see if the whole project is feasible.
mickoo
Western Thunderer
So in a diversionary tactic, quite what I'm diverting, or diverting from I've no idea, but, a new path is about to be trod.
The mission is to go from this
To this in S7
There are several ways we can achieve this, the obvious would be one of the kits already on the market, however neither are for S7 and even just making the frames wider will introduce quite a lot of work, not just for the motion but a whole newer wider lower firebox. In addition one would probably prefer to 'replace' some castings for better ones, thus there is waste in these kits. Of the two I have my eye on the Severn variant and will have a quiet word with them at Telford to see if they may consider an etches only option, doubtful but the question will be posed.
Other than the above your only really left with waiting for MOK to get round to it, and their Britannia one hopes, but that could be years away, or, your left with scratch building.
Two paths can be taken here, simply produce your own CAD art work, no hard ship and may well be the chosen path if the following fails, or simply put 'brew your own'.
Having 'acquired' several yards of 10 & 20 Thou shim brass it felt silly not to utilise it all for mundane stuff like 08 bonnet tops, so taking the bull by the horns we embark on the path of scratch building....the hard way. The first step is always research and information acquisition and the first photo shows most of what I currently have, the NRM works drawings are....well are somewhere between ordering and posting so I have to go with what I have at the moment. I could simply have made lots of copies of the drawings, cut them up and stuck them to the brass ready for cutting, but, with an eye on path two (CAD etches) I decided to run up some basic art work.
The artwork could have just as easily be hand drawn but I opted for CAD, I find it easier to ensure rivet lines are straight, that doesn't mean they will be punched straight, but at least they are printed straight!
Thus after a few hours in Autocad we arrive here
Nothing special, just the basic shapes needed for the footplate and cab, I could of colour coded the lines for those needing to be skrawked for bending and those needing a thin scratch to replicate panel joins, but hey if I don't know which are which by now I really should give up LOL
The advantage of the above is that it can easily be turned into etch work and hopefully the scratch build will ensure that all the parts mate and angles line up if I go down that road.
Before the final print I did run off one copy and make up as a basic paper model
And instantly spotted an angle error on the upper cab side sheets, which has now been rectified on the artwork.
The final artwork is thus printed and then stuck to the material.
And here lies the first conundrum, with what does one stick paper to brass with, I've opted for thin 3M double sided tape, it sticks fine, but the carrier film is devilishly tough and it may well clog up the cutting implements, I'm also concerned that pressing rivets through both paper and carrier film might present problems, but we'll find out shortly.
The other option could simply have been to mark out the shape direct on the metal, but that did seem a trite hard work and being as I'm not very good at this metal work malarky I opted to take all the help I could LOL.
The astute amongst you will have noted two odd books in the collection above, the Standard 5 uses a lot of parts off the later variant Black 5's, specifically the boiler, smokebox and firebox of the 3B boiler and a large proportion of the springing and supports, the frames are not to dissimilar either, thus, vital basic dimensions are in those two books to enable one top proceed.
Right, time to turn some perfectly good brass into scrap
The mission is to go from this
To this in S7
There are several ways we can achieve this, the obvious would be one of the kits already on the market, however neither are for S7 and even just making the frames wider will introduce quite a lot of work, not just for the motion but a whole newer wider lower firebox. In addition one would probably prefer to 'replace' some castings for better ones, thus there is waste in these kits. Of the two I have my eye on the Severn variant and will have a quiet word with them at Telford to see if they may consider an etches only option, doubtful but the question will be posed.
Other than the above your only really left with waiting for MOK to get round to it, and their Britannia one hopes, but that could be years away, or, your left with scratch building.
Two paths can be taken here, simply produce your own CAD art work, no hard ship and may well be the chosen path if the following fails, or simply put 'brew your own'.
Having 'acquired' several yards of 10 & 20 Thou shim brass it felt silly not to utilise it all for mundane stuff like 08 bonnet tops, so taking the bull by the horns we embark on the path of scratch building....the hard way. The first step is always research and information acquisition and the first photo shows most of what I currently have, the NRM works drawings are....well are somewhere between ordering and posting so I have to go with what I have at the moment. I could simply have made lots of copies of the drawings, cut them up and stuck them to the brass ready for cutting, but, with an eye on path two (CAD etches) I decided to run up some basic art work.
The artwork could have just as easily be hand drawn but I opted for CAD, I find it easier to ensure rivet lines are straight, that doesn't mean they will be punched straight, but at least they are printed straight!
Thus after a few hours in Autocad we arrive here
Nothing special, just the basic shapes needed for the footplate and cab, I could of colour coded the lines for those needing to be skrawked for bending and those needing a thin scratch to replicate panel joins, but hey if I don't know which are which by now I really should give up LOL
The advantage of the above is that it can easily be turned into etch work and hopefully the scratch build will ensure that all the parts mate and angles line up if I go down that road.
Before the final print I did run off one copy and make up as a basic paper model
And instantly spotted an angle error on the upper cab side sheets, which has now been rectified on the artwork.
The final artwork is thus printed and then stuck to the material.
And here lies the first conundrum, with what does one stick paper to brass with, I've opted for thin 3M double sided tape, it sticks fine, but the carrier film is devilishly tough and it may well clog up the cutting implements, I'm also concerned that pressing rivets through both paper and carrier film might present problems, but we'll find out shortly.
The other option could simply have been to mark out the shape direct on the metal, but that did seem a trite hard work and being as I'm not very good at this metal work malarky I opted to take all the help I could LOL.
The astute amongst you will have noted two odd books in the collection above, the Standard 5 uses a lot of parts off the later variant Black 5's, specifically the boiler, smokebox and firebox of the 3B boiler and a large proportion of the springing and supports, the frames are not to dissimilar either, thus, vital basic dimensions are in those two books to enable one top proceed.
Right, time to turn some perfectly good brass into scrap