Mickoo's BR modelling
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OzzyO
Western Thunderer
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mickoo
Western Thunderer
Well the A3 crawls along at a glacial pace, more to do with the bits I'm adding and re adding than anything else. A while back I mused there must be some point where it would be better to stop and begin again afresh, I think I passed that point weeks ago, but being bloody minded I'm determined to grind on.
We left off with some horn guides and inner frame skins, well the other side was finished off and splasher inners added, not trailing as they are a different shape and need the splasher cover trimming to suit, those will come later after a few stiff drinks!
I also added a dummy middle cylinder which will require a few basic details to break up the slab face. New intermediate sandboxes were also fabricated but soldering them in was a painful, even at 80W and 400°C solder just did not go in the seam, so I glued the drivers side in with 480....I'm using that a lot now as I'm rapidly exceeding my soldering skills more and more often.
I also added Hobbyhorse springs, complete waste of money, wrong size, wrong shape and bleedin great holes in them to be screw fixed, very shortly I'm going to be testing the strength of the 480 adhesive trying to get them off, but only after I have found better ones. I'm hoping Ragstone at Kettering offer something better, if not the right size (I have an inkling they are all 4'2" springs) then at least the right shape hangers and fixings and preferably in brass too! The shorter sized ones I can cut back easily enough, I should of done it with these, I knew they were too long before fitting and thought the extra 5mm wouldn't be an issue, talk about putting one foot on top of the other and shooting both with one bullet!
The next stage was some light front end work, cast sand boxes went in fine and I've added the massive cylinder fixing flanges fore and aft of the outside cylinders, the kit has tiny hinges for inspection covers but these massive plate work fixings are missing? I was then going to add the bogie splashers and noted a problem, the leading one goes almost all the way around the frame opening, you can see the half etch to locate it, problem is, the real thing doesn't and stops at about 3 min to 12, meaning a half etch gap to fill later.
The rear one I think does go all the way over, but I've yet to find one good photo that proves this so they're both on hold. I've looked through all my books and cannot find any photos where the leading one is so long, not A1, A10 or A3.
Simple side view, little bit of work at the rear end on the Cartazzi axle, I used the kit castings, not perfect but passed muster for what is an ever lowering set of standards as the model progresses. Of note here is the intermediate sand box, it's too far forward by 2.5mm, cast springs too big, and the front spring is too far back by 2.5mm, which means that the 4.5mm stretcher that's supposed to fit between the sand box and leading spring hanger....can't!
Overall view, added some supports for the middle slide bar and will add a pseudo slide bar in there at some point as a light blocker, I also need to add some of the larger pipework in there as well....when i can find more accurate details.
You can just see the nice half etch hinges on the footplate covers, it would be nicer if they covered the half etch place holder so nicely supplied on the footplate, they don't, so the hinges have a nice little moat around them.
Still to come, bogie stretcher, combination lever stretcher, brake cylinder stretcher and a whole new smokebox saddle, the kit cast one is just wrong and it's cast white metal, which despite all my ham fisted attempts just will not solder, which is doubly frustrating as I built several white metal 4mm kits 20 years ago and they all still in one piece!
I'm hoping the A1 loco will be better as it'll be a newer kit so should fit better, the tender certainly didn't offer much resistance, but I am wondering what the Princess Royal and Jubilee will be like. I don't think it's all the kits fault, just my expectations seem to exceed reality more and more and I'm not even into basic fine detailing yet.
We left off with some horn guides and inner frame skins, well the other side was finished off and splasher inners added, not trailing as they are a different shape and need the splasher cover trimming to suit, those will come later after a few stiff drinks!
I also added a dummy middle cylinder which will require a few basic details to break up the slab face. New intermediate sandboxes were also fabricated but soldering them in was a painful, even at 80W and 400°C solder just did not go in the seam, so I glued the drivers side in with 480....I'm using that a lot now as I'm rapidly exceeding my soldering skills more and more often.
I also added Hobbyhorse springs, complete waste of money, wrong size, wrong shape and bleedin great holes in them to be screw fixed, very shortly I'm going to be testing the strength of the 480 adhesive trying to get them off, but only after I have found better ones. I'm hoping Ragstone at Kettering offer something better, if not the right size (I have an inkling they are all 4'2" springs) then at least the right shape hangers and fixings and preferably in brass too! The shorter sized ones I can cut back easily enough, I should of done it with these, I knew they were too long before fitting and thought the extra 5mm wouldn't be an issue, talk about putting one foot on top of the other and shooting both with one bullet!
The next stage was some light front end work, cast sand boxes went in fine and I've added the massive cylinder fixing flanges fore and aft of the outside cylinders, the kit has tiny hinges for inspection covers but these massive plate work fixings are missing? I was then going to add the bogie splashers and noted a problem, the leading one goes almost all the way around the frame opening, you can see the half etch to locate it, problem is, the real thing doesn't and stops at about 3 min to 12, meaning a half etch gap to fill later.
The rear one I think does go all the way over, but I've yet to find one good photo that proves this so they're both on hold. I've looked through all my books and cannot find any photos where the leading one is so long, not A1, A10 or A3.
Simple side view, little bit of work at the rear end on the Cartazzi axle, I used the kit castings, not perfect but passed muster for what is an ever lowering set of standards as the model progresses. Of note here is the intermediate sand box, it's too far forward by 2.5mm, cast springs too big, and the front spring is too far back by 2.5mm, which means that the 4.5mm stretcher that's supposed to fit between the sand box and leading spring hanger....can't!
Overall view, added some supports for the middle slide bar and will add a pseudo slide bar in there at some point as a light blocker, I also need to add some of the larger pipework in there as well....when i can find more accurate details.
You can just see the nice half etch hinges on the footplate covers, it would be nicer if they covered the half etch place holder so nicely supplied on the footplate, they don't, so the hinges have a nice little moat around them.
Still to come, bogie stretcher, combination lever stretcher, brake cylinder stretcher and a whole new smokebox saddle, the kit cast one is just wrong and it's cast white metal, which despite all my ham fisted attempts just will not solder, which is doubly frustrating as I built several white metal 4mm kits 20 years ago and they all still in one piece!
I'm hoping the A1 loco will be better as it'll be a newer kit so should fit better, the tender certainly didn't offer much resistance, but I am wondering what the Princess Royal and Jubilee will be like. I don't think it's all the kits fault, just my expectations seem to exceed reality more and more and I'm not even into basic fine detailing yet.
Dikitriki
Flying Squad
Hi Mick,
I like your story, and am quite convinced that the end result will look very good indeed, whatever the starting point or trials along the way. There is a problem in the 'expectations gap', I know I have faced the same thing. However, unless it's MOK, you're in for extra work. With Finney and Mitchell it's less than others (though even then I have problems with the chassis detail). With everyone else, more work still, though I am surprised that you have identified so many areas in an Andrews kit. I too would have expected more.
With regard to releasing Loctite 480, heat the join - the adhesive softens enough to prise off, and maybe even rescue, the casting.
Regards,
Richard
I like your story, and am quite convinced that the end result will look very good indeed, whatever the starting point or trials along the way. There is a problem in the 'expectations gap', I know I have faced the same thing. However, unless it's MOK, you're in for extra work. With Finney and Mitchell it's less than others (though even then I have problems with the chassis detail). With everyone else, more work still, though I am surprised that you have identified so many areas in an Andrews kit. I too would have expected more.
With regard to releasing Loctite 480, heat the join - the adhesive softens enough to prise off, and maybe even rescue, the casting.
Regards,
Richard
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Richard,
Cheers, I did wonder if heat would do the trick, I'm not overly concerned if I save the casting, I don't like the big holes in them or the shape, I did consider using them on the four Hachette A4's I have (one might become a W1) as you cannot see down in between the frames, but even at low angles the shape just feels wrong.
As for looking good, sadly that's subjective, everyone at Sudbury last week thought it was nice, maybe they're just being polite LOL, but from my perspective, and in all honesty it's mine that matters the most
it's just not quite there, more frustraiting I don't have the finesses in skill sets to get what I want yet. for a running loco on a big layout, it passes muster, but for a static and photo shooting in cameos I'd like to do, it falls short in many areas.
Regarding DA, I'd always held them up there as good priced and good kits, I think where the A3 slips is that it's a 2001 kit and back then would have been very good, but today standards have risen dramatically. I know you can't see much between the frames when the boiler is on but that which you can see should be there, especially the middle cylinder, that you can see at the boiler - smoke box join quite easily. Given the date of the kit I think it'll be early CAD work or hand drawn, the little inspection lid hinges were not square which is a good indication of hand drawn. When I did the artwork for the EMD spartan cab I was amazed at how crisp and detailed very very small details were, the lozenges on the tread work were 0.25 x 0.35mm and the grab handles as thin as 0.15mm, so it canbe done.
I suspect even the Finney A3 is short in some areas too and a quick look in the Finney A4 shows some areas of concern already.
MOK is certainly the target I'm looking for, so I'm left with MO)K kits or self artwork, the artwork I have no problem with, it's the castings that'll pull me back.
Anyway, thanks for the constructive comments
Cheers, I did wonder if heat would do the trick, I'm not overly concerned if I save the casting, I don't like the big holes in them or the shape, I did consider using them on the four Hachette A4's I have (one might become a W1) as you cannot see down in between the frames, but even at low angles the shape just feels wrong.
As for looking good, sadly that's subjective, everyone at Sudbury last week thought it was nice, maybe they're just being polite LOL, but from my perspective, and in all honesty it's mine that matters the most
it's just not quite there, more frustraiting I don't have the finesses in skill sets to get what I want yet. for a running loco on a big layout, it passes muster, but for a static and photo shooting in cameos I'd like to do, it falls short in many areas.Regarding DA, I'd always held them up there as good priced and good kits, I think where the A3 slips is that it's a 2001 kit and back then would have been very good, but today standards have risen dramatically. I know you can't see much between the frames when the boiler is on but that which you can see should be there, especially the middle cylinder, that you can see at the boiler - smoke box join quite easily. Given the date of the kit I think it'll be early CAD work or hand drawn, the little inspection lid hinges were not square which is a good indication of hand drawn. When I did the artwork for the EMD spartan cab I was amazed at how crisp and detailed very very small details were, the lozenges on the tread work were 0.25 x 0.35mm and the grab handles as thin as 0.15mm, so it canbe done.
I suspect even the Finney A3 is short in some areas too and a quick look in the Finney A4 shows some areas of concern already.
MOK is certainly the target I'm looking for, so I'm left with MO)K kits or self artwork, the artwork I have no problem with, it's the castings that'll pull me back.
Anyway, thanks for the constructive comments
John TAYLOR
Western Thunderer
Hi Mick
Very interesting story....She looks good to me ,but like you am surprised you have so many issues with a DA kit. My DA Castle kit is a first of his for me and so far seems to be well designed ( 2010)
John
Very interesting story....She looks good to me ,but like you am surprised you have so many issues with a DA kit. My DA Castle kit is a first of his for me and so far seems to be well designed ( 2010)
John
Len Cattley
Western Thunderer
Hi Mick, regarding the Princess kit I am meeting with Nick at Kettering to discus the David Andrews kit as I believe he will be doing another Princess sometime later. I will be bringing a drawing of one I did in Qcad so he can have a look and check to make sure I got everything (or not)
Len
Len
John TAYLOR
Western Thunderer
Mmmmhhhh!...... Just noticed that the Castle has been withdrawn for upgrading......'ere be dragons ! ( perhaps )
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Interesting, the others will be withdrawn completely I think, some I can understand, even the A2 as that's quite a niche class and only really seen oop norf, I recall there only being one regularly south of Newcastle based at Grantham or New England, need to check notes to be sure.
But the A3 I don't follow, is that such an unpopular class of loco, I'd say not and there's not really any competition since Finney withdrew (it may never re-surface) and DJH also looks a bit long in the tooth and probably requires as much work as a DA to fettle. I cannot believe all the Hachette kits made that much difference either, I've seen a good half dozen go on Ebay in the last three or so months. Nor do I know of any RTR coming to market, though I don't follow the RTR scene much to be fair.
To be blunt some of the issues I'm having are down to my nit picking, for example the Cartazzi frame extensions, many kits have these as part of the main frame and just jogged out, the real loco has these as bolt on extensions and theres a step in the frame work right behind the rear driver, the DA kit is not the only one that fails in that area.
Another is the cylinder shape, I wasn't happy that the valve chest area was too narrow, which made the cylinder area too bulged, nor happy about where it joined the frames (photos I've seen of the Finney locos have this area incorrect as well). But, in all cases I can see why it was done, to add clearance and make the etches / construction easier and I am happy to ammend as I feel fit.
It's all the other bits that annoy me, prime example is the splashers, nice slot and tab for the outside face and correctly spaced 6mm from the inner walkway edge, but then the splasher tops and the half etch recess to take them in the foorplate is only 5mm wide, that's a 1mm gap, no issue if it was at the back, but it was at the front and becasue the splasher sits in the half etch recess you couldn't modify it for all the tea in china to make the kit parts fit. The kit splasher has nice fixing plates etched in at each end (that sit in the foorplate recess) but they are all junk, which means six new splasher tops and ten new fixing plates.
It's only a 1mm gap some would cry, but it's a lot of work to correct, you could move the splasher face back 1mm but then you'd have to fill the tab sots left exposed, and that'd work for fine scale, but in S7 your getting very close to the wheel face and risking shorting if you have too much side play.
Still, for all the niggling, it's taught many lessons, most important is to recognise before hand what's not even worth bothering about and scratch building before even attempting to use the kit parts.
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mickoo
Western Thunderer
Just a quick update, out with the old springs and in with the new, no brainer really, luckily Andy had one pack left of the brass springs so that's what I fitted, though I did also get a bag of white metal springs for the A4.
The rivet pattern on the DA A3 suggests all three are 3'6", the GA shows the rears are 4'2", I only had brass 3'6" so that's what went in, I've kinda lost the will to give a %%$$ on these now. I could of stuck a WM 4'2" in but decided to keep them all for the A4.
The leading spring needs the leading hanger cutting off and then fitted to the brake shaft hanger, I still need to add back the leading donut to the underside of the brake shaft hanger. The sand boxes were removed and refitted in the correct place and now there is the correct 5mm gap between intermediate sandboxes and leading axle spring hanger to fit the stretcher.....yaaayy!
In other news, one side cylinder casing was fitted, with correct chamfer on the rear inside edge and also temp fitted new bogie pivot stretcher for sizing and positioning tests.
Next step is to fill the holes in the frames around the inserts for the lightening holes, all this soldering and un-soldering has made the solder weep and leave gaps, the photos also show the terrible state the frames are, virtually no rivet pattern survives the previous owners attempts and the big holes in the frames around the axles are clear to see. After that? What ever takes my fancy, lots to be getting on with and a whole load more fabrication to go. I did see that Ragstone had a lovely white metal smokebox saddle, I'm tempted to go that route rather than build my own at the moment.
For want of better words, I wouldn't start here next time, I should of bit the bullet months ago and whipped up some new etched frames and be done, I've more than enough info now to do just that for the next loco, I also need three sets of new frames for more Hachette Partworks A4's I've managed to acquire.
The rivet pattern on the DA A3 suggests all three are 3'6", the GA shows the rears are 4'2", I only had brass 3'6" so that's what went in, I've kinda lost the will to give a %%$$ on these now. I could of stuck a WM 4'2" in but decided to keep them all for the A4.
The leading spring needs the leading hanger cutting off and then fitted to the brake shaft hanger, I still need to add back the leading donut to the underside of the brake shaft hanger. The sand boxes were removed and refitted in the correct place and now there is the correct 5mm gap between intermediate sandboxes and leading axle spring hanger to fit the stretcher.....yaaayy!
In other news, one side cylinder casing was fitted, with correct chamfer on the rear inside edge and also temp fitted new bogie pivot stretcher for sizing and positioning tests.
Next step is to fill the holes in the frames around the inserts for the lightening holes, all this soldering and un-soldering has made the solder weep and leave gaps, the photos also show the terrible state the frames are, virtually no rivet pattern survives the previous owners attempts and the big holes in the frames around the axles are clear to see. After that? What ever takes my fancy, lots to be getting on with and a whole load more fabrication to go. I did see that Ragstone had a lovely white metal smokebox saddle, I'm tempted to go that route rather than build my own at the moment.
For want of better words, I wouldn't start here next time, I should of bit the bullet months ago and whipped up some new etched frames and be done, I've more than enough info now to do just that for the next loco, I also need three sets of new frames for more Hachette Partworks A4's I've managed to acquire.
Compton castle
Western Thunderer
Do you still intend on doing an etch skirt to replace the hachette one?
Steve
Steve
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Steve, not sure as all mne are going to be BR versions, I might try and cut and shut one to a W1 though, but agian in BR service.
If your doing the pre war skirted version then it'd probably be better to use the kit ones, I know they are a litle thick when viewed from below but if you cut the skirt off you then have to find some way of fixing an etched one to the thin strip of faring walkway left.
If your doing the pre war skirted version then it'd probably be better to use the kit ones, I know they are a litle thick when viewed from below but if you cut the skirt off you then have to find some way of fixing an etched one to the thin strip of faring walkway left.
Compton castle
Western Thunderer
It's going to be without skirt
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Moving ever glacially onward, too many distractions researching details on A3's and writing and re-writing of notes!
Finally bit the bullet and made new splasher fixings for the new correct width splashers, tedious but necessary
Next up decided to open up the front cover plate for the combination levers, many locos in later days ran with this open so I opened up mine, added a handle to the door and retaining strap but drew the line at retaining pin and chain. Still need to add the combination lever stretcher behind there.
Finally, fitted new brake cylinder stretcher and added Ragstone brake cylinders and up front have started the cylinder drain cock activation linkages and such, slow going but all visible on the real deal.
On the negative side, after procuring (in exchange for coin) some extra large detailed photos from the late 50-s early 60's I've spotted more errors, some with the kit, some with my work. First up an own goal with the leading sand boxes, they are too low, the base should be the same level as the top of the arch for the trailing bogie wheel, to be fair the instructions....after reading them....do say to remove 3mm off the top, I'll just cut the footplate under the valve covers to set them higher.
Other issues, combination lever opening, it's massive, way too big, I thought I could live with it but I'm slowly realizing I probably can't, in addition it appears that each side is a different size, the drivers side being larger due to the size of the linkage, the firemans side is often just a slot no larger than the lever passing through. I suspect the drivers side is larger to extract the whole assembly which could be quite large with bearing bosses etc, either way both are too large. Looking at the GA it's easy to see how both are the same size, the GA is a half view and only shows the drivers side of the loco, therefore easy to assume the firemans side is the same.
Finally the last issue, that bloody hole, no matter how many times I read RTCS I struggle to understand what they've written about frames, repairs and rebuilds. My understanding is that all locos retained that one lightening hole up front, irrespective of build order or job lot. However after trawling through hundreds of photos of which a handful show this area in decent light and angle (photographers of the day preferring high noon and ¾ shots) not one shows this hole, and it is obvious when it is there. The only locos that I can find with that hole are the last batch from 1934 built as A3, the ones with no frame holes, well in the driving wheel area, 60035-043. These locos had the latest frame design after all the issues with cracked frames from the previous builds.
So it's looking like that will have to be covered, I can't fill it as it'll be near impossible to get it smooth so the only option will be a thin exterior skin of 5 thou over that whole area, which will allow me to reduce the size of the combination lever hole and get rid of that ugly gap twixt frame footplate. But first I need to re-go through all my photos with this new found knowledge and edit my notes where applicable.
Finally bit the bullet and made new splasher fixings for the new correct width splashers, tedious but necessary
Next up decided to open up the front cover plate for the combination levers, many locos in later days ran with this open so I opened up mine, added a handle to the door and retaining strap but drew the line at retaining pin and chain. Still need to add the combination lever stretcher behind there.
Finally, fitted new brake cylinder stretcher and added Ragstone brake cylinders and up front have started the cylinder drain cock activation linkages and such, slow going but all visible on the real deal.
On the negative side, after procuring (in exchange for coin) some extra large detailed photos from the late 50-s early 60's I've spotted more errors, some with the kit, some with my work. First up an own goal with the leading sand boxes, they are too low, the base should be the same level as the top of the arch for the trailing bogie wheel, to be fair the instructions....after reading them....do say to remove 3mm off the top, I'll just cut the footplate under the valve covers to set them higher.
Other issues, combination lever opening, it's massive, way too big, I thought I could live with it but I'm slowly realizing I probably can't, in addition it appears that each side is a different size, the drivers side being larger due to the size of the linkage, the firemans side is often just a slot no larger than the lever passing through. I suspect the drivers side is larger to extract the whole assembly which could be quite large with bearing bosses etc, either way both are too large. Looking at the GA it's easy to see how both are the same size, the GA is a half view and only shows the drivers side of the loco, therefore easy to assume the firemans side is the same.
Finally the last issue, that bloody hole, no matter how many times I read RTCS I struggle to understand what they've written about frames, repairs and rebuilds. My understanding is that all locos retained that one lightening hole up front, irrespective of build order or job lot. However after trawling through hundreds of photos of which a handful show this area in decent light and angle (photographers of the day preferring high noon and ¾ shots) not one shows this hole, and it is obvious when it is there. The only locos that I can find with that hole are the last batch from 1934 built as A3, the ones with no frame holes, well in the driving wheel area, 60035-043. These locos had the latest frame design after all the issues with cracked frames from the previous builds.
So it's looking like that will have to be covered, I can't fill it as it'll be near impossible to get it smooth so the only option will be a thin exterior skin of 5 thou over that whole area, which will allow me to reduce the size of the combination lever hole and get rid of that ugly gap twixt frame footplate. But first I need to re-go through all my photos with this new found knowledge and edit my notes where applicable.
Dikitriki
Flying Squad
Despite all your misgivings, it's looking very good.
Unfortunately, you are in the position where you appear to have put more time into the research (or sources are better now) than the designer did. Perhaps the massage is you should draw up your own art work in future, and source castings from the trade.
Richard
Unfortunately, you are in the position where you appear to have put more time into the research (or sources are better now) than the designer did. Perhaps the massage is you should draw up your own art work in future, and source castings from the trade.
Richard