4mm Monks: perhaps NOT a Classic Minories - for a grandchild.
- Thread starter jonte
- Start date
jonte
Western Thunderer
Hi Bill and many thanks for your prompt response.
It could indeed, perhaps because the track has been lifted and relayed umpteen times as you will have seen. You could never tell from examining it - and I’ve scrutinised it! It’s tight to both rails too.
This isn’t the the original point, Bill, to be honest - it was replaced because the spring went U/S on one side of the original and it was barely used! This one was originally on another section of the board, but was replaced because of ‘wheel drop’ which I know is the stock not the rail but I didn’t want any future problems. Finding a replacement was difficult during the pandemic too.
I’ll try as you suggest, but as tough as these Streamlines are (or they used to be!) they’re no match for a 25W; anything else just isn’t up to the job. There is another option, but it’s tight against the frame and it involves using the fishplate. Although many advise against fishplates, I’ve not had any bother from in the past.
Will let you know how it goes, Bill.
Many thanks once again.
Jonte
jonte
Western Thunderer
Hi Mike and many thanks for getting in touch.
There’s no short Mike: as you know, the DCC is sensitive to this and registers immediately on the handset. Also, the DC eventually sent it through okay without a hitch. Finally, as you can see from the photo overleaf, it all works swimmingly when I take a direct lead from the Bus to the negative rail. The only time it would short is when I forget to ‘flick’ (manual) polarity switch which has been known to happen
All things considered, I reckon it’s either a dry joint or a voltage drop; the former being the most likely from what I can gather.
I’ll try and deal with the joint in situ. If that doesn’t resolve, it will be head scratching time again….
Cheers, Mike.
Jonte
jonte
Western Thunderer
Well it’s been one of those days, fellow Westerners; as soon as I mentioned about posting only in the event of a mishap, I knew I’d jinxed it
Apart from the dodgey point - the last one tested too; all the others were fine ( I say fine, but that’s electrically!), I discovered that the switch blade of another had decided to ride up against the stock rail to one side, causing the wheels of the test loco to step up onto it. Thinking that the lugs attaching the motor to it on one side were too tight, I loosened them and tried again - which made no difference!
On examination, I noticed that the tie bar moves upwards at an angle rather than horizontally, causing the switch rails to sit above the stock rail. When the loco passes over the rail, the lighter pony wheels ride up, as does the first driver, but as the second driver arrives, the locos weight forces the switch rail back down. The only solution I could think of was to insert a wedge of suitable thickness. I picked up the piercing saw and cut off a section from the top of an offcut of ‘H’ beam which seemed thin enough, and wedged it in:
This did the trick without affecting the opposite rail, but after a couple of switchings, it soon pinged out and tested my reflexes.
Think I’ll cut it down to a more suitable size and glue it in. Thankfully, it doesn’t seem to put any strain on the CDU assisted motor, which is a blessing because I don’t want to go through the rigmarole of lifting the track - and that ‘orrible ballast
Don’t know if it’s me, but has the quality or robustness of Streamline gone down the pan? That’s two out of seven, barely used, that have developed problems with the moving parts; perhaps these newer ones without the box between the sleepers are prone to faults as I’ve read elsewhere about Peco supplying parts to repair the spring parts. Disappointed. Thought they were more reliable than this.
Ah well, let’s see if we can repair it and get some current back through to the other one.
Cheers for now.
Jonte
Apart from the dodgey point - the last one tested too; all the others were fine ( I say fine, but that’s electrically!), I discovered that the switch blade of another had decided to ride up against the stock rail to one side, causing the wheels of the test loco to step up onto it. Thinking that the lugs attaching the motor to it on one side were too tight, I loosened them and tried again - which made no difference!
On examination, I noticed that the tie bar moves upwards at an angle rather than horizontally, causing the switch rails to sit above the stock rail. When the loco passes over the rail, the lighter pony wheels ride up, as does the first driver, but as the second driver arrives, the locos weight forces the switch rail back down. The only solution I could think of was to insert a wedge of suitable thickness. I picked up the piercing saw and cut off a section from the top of an offcut of ‘H’ beam which seemed thin enough, and wedged it in:
This did the trick without affecting the opposite rail, but after a couple of switchings, it soon pinged out and tested my reflexes.
Think I’ll cut it down to a more suitable size and glue it in. Thankfully, it doesn’t seem to put any strain on the CDU assisted motor, which is a blessing because I don’t want to go through the rigmarole of lifting the track - and that ‘orrible ballast
Don’t know if it’s me, but has the quality or robustness of Streamline gone down the pan? That’s two out of seven, barely used, that have developed problems with the moving parts; perhaps these newer ones without the box between the sleepers are prone to faults as I’ve read elsewhere about Peco supplying parts to repair the spring parts. Disappointed. Thought they were more reliable than this.
Ah well, let’s see if we can repair it and get some current back through to the other one.
Cheers for now.
Jonte
Yorkshire Dave
Western Thunderer
Full marks and credit for perseverance Jonte. 
In relation to your first issue, as @Bill Campbell has alluded to it would be worth re-flowing the solder joint. If that's too tricky I would suggest adding another wire from the top of the fishplate on the rail joint by your hand.
Further to your query in your last post on closer inspection of the point motor attachments it looks like the tabs bent to secure the point motors to the points are too tight which is pulling up the outer edges of the sleepers and possibly the tiebar alignment. I would relax the bend on the tabs by raising them slightly with a screwdriver blade which should flatten the sleepers and may resolve the problem. This is something I experienced way back when I used to model in 4mm.
In relation to your first issue, as @Bill Campbell has alluded to it would be worth re-flowing the solder joint. If that's too tricky I would suggest adding another wire from the top of the fishplate on the rail joint by your hand.
Further to your query in your last post on closer inspection of the point motor attachments it looks like the tabs bent to secure the point motors to the points are too tight which is pulling up the outer edges of the sleepers and possibly the tiebar alignment. I would relax the bend on the tabs by raising them slightly with a screwdriver blade which should flatten the sleepers and may resolve the problem. This is something I experienced way back when I used to model in 4mm.
jonte
Western Thunderer
Full marks and credit for perseverance Jonte.
In relation to your first issue, as @Bill Campbell has alluded to it would be worth re-flowing the solder joint. If that's too tricky I would suggest adding another wire from the top of the fishplate on the rail joint by your hand.
View attachment 147639
Further to your query in your last post on closer inspection of the point motor attachments it looks like the tabs bent to secure the point motors to the points are too tight which is pulling up the outer edges of the sleepers and possibly the tiebar alignment. I would relax the bend on the tabs by raising them slightly with a screwdriver blade which should flatten the sleepers and may resolve the problem. This is something I experienced way back when I used to model in 4mm.
View attachment 147640
Hi Dave and many thanks for the moral support !! Without it, I think I’d go off the hobby pretty quickly
Yep, going to try as Bill suggests first thing; best to start with fresh eyes and renewed vigour me thinks. Good spot by yourself: that fishplate is Plan B
As usual with me, it won’t be that straight forward as there’s only a midge’s between the base of the ‘plate and the 2” x 1” frame. Why do I make everything so hard for myself…… As Bill advises: plenty of flux!I came to the same conclusion as yourself, Dave, over the tight lugs, but despite slackening them (on the offending article) it made no difference. Perhaps the damage was done
You’re right to advise loosening the others, but to be honest, after all the struggles I’ve experienced, think I’ll adopt the old adage: if it ain’t broke……
Knowing my luck, they’ll drop out of the bottom and won’t go back in.If and when the worst comes to the worst, I’ll just have to shove another strip of plazzy under the rail
Thanks for your helpful advice Dave and your kind efforts on my behalf. Don’t wander too far; I’ll probably be shouting for help with something else in the not too distant!
Cheers
Jonte
jonte
Western Thunderer
Hello again, Dave, (@Yorkshire Dave ) - just after writing my last post, got to thinking there’s no point in asking for help if you don’t heed the advice - especially now I know the worst that could happen it probably will! - so, off I trundled down the garden path to give it the last modelling hour of the day.
Gingerly and with the aid of a jeweller’s screwdriver, I did my best not to damage the outside of the rail as earlier with a Stanley blade, as I steadily prised up those those titanium (?) lugs with my smallest flat nose pliers once there was enough purchase. As the sleepers gently eased they’re way back to the horizontal, I breathed a sigh of relief, wary of the darned motors dropping into the ether! Luckily they didn’t and thankfully the switch rail, although still slightly proud, sat more snugly than before:
It’s the one at the top of the picture, which was taken before I eased the lugs on the opposite side. Will probably still need a piece of plastic inserted, but this time just a sliver.
I’ve since completed four which now sit more squarely on their bases; the other two I’ll face in the morning:
The only issue now is that the lugs, though shorter, won’t fold flat. Unfortunately, they’re seated upon thin graph paper so can’t gain enough purchase with puncturing it. If I counter the force by pressing against the base of the motor, the lugs just ride up again and defeat the object. Never mind. It’s just a train set. I’ll learn to ignore them like the switches.
Thanks again.
Jonte
Gingerly and with the aid of a jeweller’s screwdriver, I did my best not to damage the outside of the rail as earlier with a Stanley blade, as I steadily prised up those those titanium (?) lugs with my smallest flat nose pliers once there was enough purchase. As the sleepers gently eased they’re way back to the horizontal, I breathed a sigh of relief, wary of the darned motors dropping into the ether! Luckily they didn’t and thankfully the switch rail, although still slightly proud, sat more snugly than before:
It’s the one at the top of the picture, which was taken before I eased the lugs on the opposite side. Will probably still need a piece of plastic inserted, but this time just a sliver.
I’ve since completed four which now sit more squarely on their bases; the other two I’ll face in the morning:
The only issue now is that the lugs, though shorter, won’t fold flat. Unfortunately, they’re seated upon thin graph paper so can’t gain enough purchase with puncturing it. If I counter the force by pressing against the base of the motor, the lugs just ride up again and defeat the object. Never mind. It’s just a train set. I’ll learn to ignore them like the switches.
Thanks again.
Jonte
jonte
Western Thunderer
Thanks, Simon.
I’m using the Citric variety as recommended by @oldravendale for my Finney kit attempt last year.
Cheers.
Jonte
Simon
Flying Squad
Hi Jonte
Nice looking layout you have here.
I think you are making your life difficult by bending those tabs over at all.
What I do is to just twist the tabs with a pair of pliers, leaving them in the vertical plane, drop a tiny bit of superglue around their base for added security, then simply snip the offending sticky out tabs off with side cutters, and finish off with a file across the top.
Much less stressful, works every time and looks better as you dont see the tabs when finished.......
Simon
Nice looking layout you have here.
I think you are making your life difficult by bending those tabs over at all.
What I do is to just twist the tabs with a pair of pliers, leaving them in the vertical plane, drop a tiny bit of superglue around their base for added security, then simply snip the offending sticky out tabs off with side cutters, and finish off with a file across the top.
Much less stressful, works every time and looks better as you dont see the tabs when finished.......
Simon
jonte
Western Thunderer
Hi, Simon, and thank you for the compliment. It’s intended for fun, when all is said and done, but I’m quite humbled when a fellow Westerner ‘recognises’ it
Smashing idea! I had considered the ‘snips’ but wasn’t sure whether it would end in tears like most of my efforts thus far
As this venture is never far from mind, I tossed and turned most of the night thinking how I could address those pesky tabs as I would prefer not to see them, bearing in mind my limitations. The ‘solution’ I eventually came up with was to place a Stanley blade below the base and tie bar so that it straddled the wood either side of the paper to give it some solidity. Then I was going to re-open the tags again and insert a short piece of brass rod against the tags so that it gave something to lever against. If in the event that the motor rode up again under the force of folding the tabs, the ‘space’ left when the rod was removed would allow the motor to be pushed back down again.
This was probably a bum steer on my part again, and what seemed good in theory would no doubt prove a disaster in practise! Anyway, now you’ve kindly enlightened me, Simon, that mad-cap idea can get in the bin along with all the others I’ve had.
Jesting apart, Simon, I’m most grateful you shared that tip with me and lightened my burden. Many thanks.
Jonte
Simon
Flying Squad
Hi Jonte
You are very welcome, I think/hope you will find it easier.
Your model concept is great I think, I just love that plan. Although I'm very happy with my G1 stuff I did indulge in a BR blue Hornby 2 BIL from Kernow a few years ago and am hopefully going to buy one of the late Colin Parks fantastic EMU models from Barry. A "minories" type layout-ette might be just the thing?
Mind you, in the context of what you are doing I'd be worried that I might just finish in time for great grandchildren(!) - how time flies
Looking forward to seeing further developments, it is great to see people doing things, warts and all.
I can do warts......
Simon
You are very welcome, I think/hope you will find it easier.
Your model concept is great I think, I just love that plan. Although I'm very happy with my G1 stuff I did indulge in a BR blue Hornby 2 BIL from Kernow a few years ago and am hopefully going to buy one of the late Colin Parks fantastic EMU models from Barry. A "minories" type layout-ette might be just the thing?
Mind you, in the context of what you are doing I'd be worried that I might just finish in time for great grandchildren(!) - how time flies
Looking forward to seeing further developments, it is great to see people doing things, warts and all.
I can do warts......
Simon
Roger Pound
Western Thunderer
Hi Jonte,
Been keeping up with your saga and continue to be overwhelmed by your patience and efforts to get things right. Simon (@Flying Squad) beat me to the draw on the suggestion of twisting the tabs of the motors. In my occasional ventures in to using Peco underfloor motors I always fixed them this way - it just seemed the natural way to me, as it did to other enthusiasts I knew at the time who also used the same method. But as they say, there is more than one way, etc. etc - and we all see things differently. I must confess that my age and increasing loss of faculties makes me glad I am avoiding the problems you are having and that my reversion to simple point levers, manually operated is achieved with far fewer problems. Of course, as my layout is basically a shunting yard, not a busy little terminal like 'Minories', I can more easily justify the method as many yards had hand thrown switches in 12" to the foot scale.......!
Well done, my friend and do keep up with your persistent efforts - the end result will be well worth it!
Cheers,
Roger
Been keeping up with your saga and continue to be overwhelmed by your patience and efforts to get things right. Simon (@Flying Squad) beat me to the draw on the suggestion of twisting the tabs of the motors. In my occasional ventures in to using Peco underfloor motors I always fixed them this way - it just seemed the natural way to me, as it did to other enthusiasts I knew at the time who also used the same method. But as they say, there is more than one way, etc. etc - and we all see things differently. I must confess that my age and increasing loss of faculties makes me glad I am avoiding the problems you are having and that my reversion to simple point levers, manually operated is achieved with far fewer problems. Of course, as my layout is basically a shunting yard, not a busy little terminal like 'Minories', I can more easily justify the method as many yards had hand thrown switches in 12" to the foot scale.......
!Well done, my friend and do keep up with your persistent efforts - the end result will be well worth it!
Cheers,
Roger
jonte
Western Thunderer
I’m afraid mine are warts with bells on, Simon
And if ‘doing things’ includes an extremely vexed man chucking a board with not a lot on it into the nearest skip, then you’ve come to the right place.
Talking of doing things, I heeded your advice and addressed those not so aesthetic tabs
For once, I followed instructions to a tee:
Opened tabs (managed without breaking anything!):
Ensuring bases still flat, I twisted the tabs to approximately a forty five degree angle and liberally applied glue:
Belt n braces approach saw me turning board over and dabbing glue to underside of tabs with a piece of brass rod. After leaving a good or so to dry, I attacked the tabs with the snips:
The bloom of the glue makes it look messy, but at least the motors were still in place. Better still, a quick test showed they still worked!
Here are the finished results after filing down during which I did my best not to damage adjacent rails. Rails mercifully escaped but perhaps I’ve ended up with one or two slimmer looking sleepers:
I’m sure there are many amongst who would have left absolutely no trace of the tabs or glue, but I’m pleased as Punch that those tabs are no longer on show nor squeezing the life out of my points. That’ll do for me
Yep - the design is definitely a world beater. I’ve wasted so much time trying to improve/compact it, but I don’t really think it can be. Best to just get on and build it, which I eventually realised when I came to my senses.
I recommend you follow suit, Simon, and talking of stock, it’s so good it can lend itself to pre-grouping, modern and anything in between, and it would be ideal for your planned EMUs. I’ve really no idea if my ‘new addition’ will even like model railways, but if they do - fingers crossed - there’s no telling what might end up running on it, as my fellow Westerner @Roger Pound sagely pointed out! With my steam interest, it could end up a right typical train set with its eclectic mix of stock
But that won’t bother me one bit. Although it would appear to the casual reader that to date this has simply been a tale of woe, and true many things have tested my patience, nevertheless, I sat and played with it for half an hour or so yesterday afternoon and I can honestly say that as my DCC powered 8F ambled along my train set track, I haven’t enjoyed myself as much in a long time, and for just a moment, I was 8 years old again without a care in the world…..
Time indeed does fly, Simon. So much water under the bridge.
Anyway, many thanks once again for your valuable assistance in averting yet another darned crisis!
Now, onto the next.
Jonte
jonte
Western Thunderer
Hi Jonte,
Been keeping up with your saga and continue to be overwhelmed by your patience and efforts to get things right. Simon (@Flying Squad) beat me to the draw on the suggestion of twisting the tabs of the motors. In my occasional ventures in to using Peco underfloor motors I always fixed them this way - it just seemed the natural way to me, as it did to other enthusiasts I knew at the time who also used the same method. But as they say, there is more than one way, etc. etc - and we all see things differently. I must confess that my age and increasing loss of faculties makes me glad I am avoiding the problems you are having and that my reversion to simple point levers, manually operated is achieved with far fewer problems. Of course, as my layout is basically a shunting yard, not a busy little terminal like 'Minories', I can more easily justify the method as many yards had hand thrown switches in 12" to the foot scale.......
Well done, my friend and do keep up with your persistent efforts - the end result will be well worth it!
Cheers,
Roger
Hi Roger!
No probs. You’ve already been of great help so far in delaying this venture being launched into the nearest skip, and I thank you for kind words of support once more
Your ears must have been burning, Roger, as I was just mentioning you in my recent post which I must have been writing while you were posting!
Not so sure about lack of faculties playing a part in your decision to opt for mechanical point control: sounds more like wisdom to me
If I’d only known.Thanks again, Roger, and enjoy your shunting.
Jon
Simon
Flying Squad
Jonte
Brilliant! So pleased it was helpful, that looks just the job to me.
As it happens I'm considering point changing options for my new G1 outside railway at the moment, I'm currently entranced by the fiendishly clever method devised by Giles of this parish......
I have been told by my co conspirator that I must on no account use methods involving screwdrivers, bent bits of wire and tiny wooden chocks (as I may have done before) on account of the extreme impairment they impart to playing with the trains!!
Simon
Brilliant! So pleased it was helpful, that looks just the job to me.
As it happens I'm considering point changing options for my new G1 outside railway at the moment, I'm currently entranced by the fiendishly clever method devised by Giles of this parish......
I have been told by my co conspirator that I must on no account use methods involving screwdrivers, bent bits of wire and tiny wooden chocks (as I may have done before) on account of the extreme impairment they impart to playing with the trains!!
Simon
Yorkshire Dave
Western Thunderer
Excellent news Jonte. Patience is rewarded
.I have too often thought of this type of Minories layout after following your thread here, based on the Berlin S or München U Bahn and Roco-Line track.
jonte
Western Thunderer
Excellent news Jonte. Patience is rewarded
I have too often thought of this type of Minories layout after following your thread here, based on the Berlin S or München U Bahn and Roco-Line track.
Thanks, Dave, and thanks also for the prompt; strangulated points aren’t the way to go
Overseas railways I’ve not considered, but as you suggest, there’s no reason why not. I’d be interested to see that. Funnily enough, the last exhibition I attended I was accompanied by my wife; her favourite layout was a Prussian themed exhibit of all things. Fascinated her, and I became rather partial to it myself.
As with Simon, I’d strongly recommend it; just watch those overhead beams and don’t go with Peco: Roco sounds good
Best
Jonte
jonte
Western Thunderer
Decided to tackle that dry joint that @Bill Campbell kindly pointed out to me yesterday.
All things considered, I decided against Plan A: attempting to resolder the dry joint from below baseboard. Unfortunately, the hole would have to be widened to gain access with the soldering iron and to get a clearer view of proceedings. It was just too much of a risk getting the drill bit so close to the base of the now fixed down track, one that I wasn’t prepared to take, so it was over to Plan B: utilising the fishplate at the toe end of the point.
Though considered, I decided against drilling from underneath like before, as the blow-out in the ply at the surface is quite severe. Luckily, I’ve since removed the overhead beams that previously obstructed the use of the power drill, and even though vertical access with the drill is still not on the cards, I can now get it to a more acute angle of attack.
A 3.5mm pilot hole was sunk and then opened up to 6mm to give a little wiggle room. It was only after clearing the detritus that I noticed the bent rail. A quick check with the gauge confirmed my fears:
This wasn’t caused by the drill - you can see the edge is still clean - so it must have arrived like this, as I’ve been more than careful handling the points. Perhaps I should have noticed this before, but it was pointless crying over spilt milk, so it was just another headache that needed sorting. Replacement was out, so it was out with two sets of pliers and some gentle teasing until the gauge said ‘yes’:
So now it’s out with the iron again. But it’s started spitting so I’ll put it away till the morning.
Not a bad day in all, thanks to all for their kind assistance, and encouragement, but still a long way to go. Hopefully after tomorrow I can address the second board.
Cheers
Jonte
All things considered, I decided against Plan A: attempting to resolder the dry joint from below baseboard. Unfortunately, the hole would have to be widened to gain access with the soldering iron and to get a clearer view of proceedings. It was just too much of a risk getting the drill bit so close to the base of the now fixed down track, one that I wasn’t prepared to take, so it was over to Plan B: utilising the fishplate at the toe end of the point.
Though considered, I decided against drilling from underneath like before, as the blow-out in the ply at the surface is quite severe. Luckily, I’ve since removed the overhead beams that previously obstructed the use of the power drill, and even though vertical access with the drill is still not on the cards, I can now get it to a more acute angle of attack.
A 3.5mm pilot hole was sunk and then opened up to 6mm to give a little wiggle room. It was only after clearing the detritus that I noticed the bent rail
. A quick check with the gauge confirmed my fears: This wasn’t caused by the drill - you can see the edge is still clean - so it must have arrived like this, as I’ve been more than careful handling the points. Perhaps I should have noticed this before, but it was pointless crying over spilt milk, so it was just another headache that needed sorting. Replacement was out, so it was out with two sets of pliers and some gentle teasing until the gauge said ‘yes’:
So now it’s out with the iron again. But it’s started spitting so I’ll put it away till the morning.
Not a bad day in all, thanks to all for their kind assistance, and encouragement, but still a long way to go. Hopefully after tomorrow I can address the second board.
Cheers
Jonte