7mm On Heather's Workbench - three is a magic number

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
Bob, Heather,

Secondary diversion - the photo of the carriage with the gangway torn off shows this vehicle equipped with an adapter for coupling to a Pullman gangway. How common was that on GW carriages? I assume only relevant if working on to the Southern/LNER...?

Steph
 

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
Interesting shots Ian - that one has got a gangway adapter too.
I wonder if it was a BR modification applied to all GW carriages to allow inter-working...?

Steph
 

Bob

Western Thunderer
I've therefore got a couple of photos of carriages with BS gangways pulled off. Strangely they don't seem to have caused quite the damage to the carriage itself that your pic shows.

This incident took place at Kidderminster (SVR) early on a Saturday morning in 1990. This and another vehicle were being detached from a rake in the platform. The damage to this coach was noteworthy as the other vehicle involved was not damaged at all and remained in traffic.

Secondary diversion - the photo of the carriage with the gangway torn off shows this vehicle equipped with an adapter for coupling to a Pullman gangway. How common was that on GW carriages? I assume only relevant if working on to the Southern/LNER...?

No doubt an SVR addition Steph.

Try these as well.

Excellent pics there Ian, very useful as I have a couple to build.
 

Heather Kay

Western Thunderer
From my reading of the reference materials, the GWR developed a method to allow connection between their standard gangway and the Pullman style gangways. Not sure when they did it, though, or how widespread it became in service.

This is all superb information, chaps. Thank you!
 

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
Heather,

Do you know, even roughly, when the GWR started using the gangway adapters?

It's a shame the CPL gangways don't have them, but I suppose it's another potential target for an etch. Understandably the Southern fitted them to the majority of their pre-grouping stock (and the Thanet stock) to allow inter-operation with the later Lynes, Maunsell and Bulleid stock. I assume that the LNER was in much the same position but it never occurred to me that the GWR (or LMS for that matter) would have any reason to fit adapters.

Steph
 

Heather Kay

Western Thunderer
Do you know, even roughly, when the GWR started using the gangway adapters?

Russell's GW Coaches Appendix Vol 1 has an official photo of No 7061 on page 161, showing the special gangway fitted to five vehicles. The diagram was E159, which is a brake composite. The text tells me:

Lot 1622 of 1939; running numbers 7341-6, specially fitted for coupling to Pullman gangways.

That's confusing, because the previous lot of 1938 (1590) seems to have been adapted as well. Perhaps they were experimental, leading to lot 1622.

I'm bewildered now. I'm going out for a day at Wisley Gardens to recover. :D
 

Heather Kay

Western Thunderer
Hello again! It's been a bit mad round here this past few days, and not a lot of modelling has happened.

As you know, I've been working with gangways. As you might imagine, things don't work out quite as JLTRT might expect.

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The etched brass and rubber gangway represents one of the suspended versions used by the GWR. Two cast brass "shelf" brackets are supplied on a sprue. The top bracket, fixed to the coach end, takes the weight. The lower bracket is attached to the gangway rubbing plate. Here you see both brackets, and you can see the lower one is not quite right. I suspect it's designed to be fitted up the other way, but I can't find a photo that shows that orientation. So, what I guess is supposed to represent the suspension spring must be removed.

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Here's my version. I'm using 0.7mm wire to hang the gangway. To represent the spring which is below the lower bracket I cut a 5mm length of fine brass tube.

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I soldered the brackets to the faceplate etch. The half-etched slots need to be carefully filed to the full width. I've placed the suspension bars in place - and left the bars longer than they need to be. Once they're fixed to the top brackets I will trim them down. The plan is not to fix the bars to the bottom brackets. To give an impression of the springs I ran the tubes under a scalpel to score them a little. Note I have cut a representation of the odd little slot at the top centre of the rubbing plate. I have no clue what it's for, but it is quite noticeable.

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The gangway fitted to an end. Things like end steps needed to be shuffled about a little to let the top brackets fit. A quick touch of the soldering iron at the top of the suspension wire holds it all together.

Well, that's one down. Five more to do. :confused::drool:
 

Heather Kay

Western Thunderer
What did you use to bond the rubber? bellows to the brass and resin?

I use Hafixs superglue. It takes patience to fit the rubbing plate to the rubber bellows, which is often a bit distorted from packing. I work steadily along each edge. The whole assembly was attached to the coach end using the same glue.

Usual disclaimer, just a satisfied customer. :)
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
Our collective knowledge of GWR carriage design comes from three main sources of information:-
* official drawings which tend to be focussed on personal interests;
* published material, which is generally the four volumes by Russell, the two volumes by Harris, the two volumes of Soole's photographs and a recent book of colour photos by Robertson;
* what remains in preservation.

In the case of gangways, this is an esoteric subject which, to the best of my knowledge, has not been covered in relevant books. My drawings of gangways are of the prototypes from the Dean-Churchward era and not applicable to Heather's models. Visiting all heritage / preservation sites to photograph gangways is too onerous a task so providing some answer to the questions which have been raised here falls back on consulting the oracle - in this case Mr. John Lewis. What follows is a summary of an e-mail discussion on the topic, references to "Y" and "A" types / styles of brackets is not official nomenclature and such terms were used by me as convenient handles for the discussion. The Collett coaches being built by Heather have the "A" type of suspension bracket on the end of the coach.

GDB> The question relates to the brackets on the coach end, the brackets which support the suspension rods from the gangway buffing plate, a simple enough question:- how many variants in shape of such brackets?
(to which I might add:- why do such variants exist?)

GDB> Post grouping there appears to be two types of coach end brackets. One type is like a "Y" turned through 90 degrees and then bolted to the coach end through the tops of the Y. Another type is like an "A" turned such that
the side of the A is vertical and then bolted to the coach end through that side. Where these types in contemporary use? If not used at the same time then which came first?

GDB> In passing, when did the GWR start adding gangway adaptors to the buffing plate so as to enable GWR carriages to work with LNER stock?


JL> These are difficult questions because I have never seen any dates for them.

JL> The first type of gangway bracket seems to have been a simple bracket sticking out from the coach ends. The "A" bracket seems to have been in use at the same time (eg on the Super Saloons) The "Y" type seems to
have come into use during 1934 and seems to have superceded the other types. The earliest I have (from a photo) is 5803, built 4 Aug 1934 on Lot 1510. I suspect the changeover was made because the Y type were probably
stronger than the orginal and cheaper than the "A" type.

JL> I have never (yet) identified a GWR coach with an adaptor for Pullman type gangways **in GWR days**. However the 1936 General Appendix to the Rule Book says "A limited number of G.W. vehicles are fitted with
special gangway levers for coupling to Pullman type gangways". If one of these coaches was not available when a GWR coach had to be coupled to one with Pullman type gangways then the end gangway doors had to be
locked out of use and shields had to be fitted to the gangways.

My take on this discussion is that both types of bracket could be used on new designs circa mid 1930s with the "A" type continuing to be used for those designs for which that bracket was part of the original build specification. As to the Pullman gangway adaptors, such were in use on the GWR by 1936 (rule book reference)... which carriage designs were so fitted would need research on original carriage diagrams/drawings and possibly carriage working notices to identify where such stock was used.

regards, Graham
 

Heather Kay

Western Thunderer
And we're back in the room!

There has been a slight hiatus with the workbench. Domestic duties, visiting an air show, and acquiring a new pooter which has taken me the best part of two days to set up to my satisfaction, can all be blamed.

I have completed the D94's ends now. While I contemplate the graft of getting the remaining two pairs of gangways sorted out, I thought I'd turn my attention to the droplights.

As you may remember, the client thought it would be nice to have a couple of dropped lights to bring some life to the coaches. We also agreed to use microscope slide glass as the glazing material. I bought some CPL etched droplights at the ALSRM Reading show, and I sat down yesterday to figure out the best way to fit them into the moulded bodysides.

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Here an example of a prepared window, filed and trimmed out to accept the brass droplight insert. How I hate such close-ups. They show such nastiness to the finish. :oops:

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On the left, the raw material. On the right, a droplight about halfway to completion. Let me explain. The CPL etches are designed to fit into etched coaches, where the body sides are much thinner. The JLTRT sides are quite thick, and if I simply stuck the etch flat to the back of the door it would look horribly wrong. I therefore have to file back to slide the 'light into the frame, so it's about where the real thing would be as the window drops into the door itself.

To perform the miracle of slimming, I slapped black marker pen all over the etch. I carefully aligned it behind the door aperture, and scribed down the sides. This gave me the point to which I should trim. A sharp pair of Rolson scissors (which never seem to be blunted by cutting brass of this thickness) allowed me to carefully trim away - allowing for the slight curvature such trimming causes - with the final stretch done by filing and offering up to the aperture for a good interference fit. The visible top edge is likewise treated to represent the real top edge width. The final step is to trim off level to the height I want the droplight to be set at.

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And here's the result. The first shot shows, hopefully, how the droplight is rebated in the door window aperture. The second shot compares it with an unmolested door window.

Thankfully, I only have a one or two droplights per side, and since I have worked out the method it doesn't take as long as I thought it might.

Once the sides are given there coats of paint, the glazing will be hopefully be a simple trim to fit into the space behind the droplight itself.

Livery note: The GWR livery of brown and cream shows droplights painted in brown - or varnished wood, depending on your interpretation. As these coaches will be in the BR "blood and custard" livery, the droplights are painted in cream.

Now back to the workbench!
 

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Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
Note I have cut a representation of the odd little slot at the top centre of the rubbing plate. I have no clue what it's for, but it is quite noticeable...


Heather,
Just catching up with the postings I note your query over the slot at the top of the gangway. Well, it's part of the adapter and keys to the top of the Pullman gangway when in use. It's there to stop the two gangways corkscrewing around each other. So (you're not going to like this) your gangway, which hasn't got an adapter, shouldn't have the slot...

JL> I have never (yet) identified a GWR coach with an adaptor for Pullman type gangways **in GWR days**. However the 1936 General Appendix to the Rule Book says "A limited number of G.W. vehicles are fitted with
special gangway levers for coupling to Pullman type gangways". If one of these coaches was not available when a GWR coach had to be coupled to one with Pullman type gangways then the end gangway doors had to be
locked out of use and shields had to be fitted to the gangways...


Graham,
That mirrors the Southern coaching stock appendix notes for coupling carriages with different (or faulty) draftgear/gangways.
I'm still intrigued as to whether the GWR were expected to be providing adapters for some of it's stock as a result of WW2; wasn't the date quoted earlier in the thread 1939?

Steph
 

Heather Kay

Western Thunderer
So (you're not going to like this) your gangway, which hasn't got an adapter, shouldn't have the slot...

D'oh!

=o)

What's annoying me more is the top brackets not lining up with the bottom brackets. The top ones seem too wide apart if you use the moulded holes, and I have a sneaking suspicion the bottom ones should be angled outwards slightly.

I think a photographic expedition to Didcot will be in order this summer, if only to confirm my own suspicions. The excuse to get useful prototype photos and measurements is secondary. ;)
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
Note I have cut a representation of the odd little slot at the top centre of the rubbing plate. I have no clue what it's for...
I note your query over the slot at the top of the gangway. Well, it's part of the adapter and keys to the top of the Pullman gangway when in use. It's there to stop the two gangways corkscrewing around each other. So (you're not going to like this) your gangway, which hasn't got an adapter, shouldn't have the slot...
I question the purpose of the slot as described by Steph... "Swindon-style" end boards had a button / collar stud at the very top of the board and that stud dropped into the slot in the end of the gangway rubbing plate - this slot / stud combination provided a means of supporting the gangway cover. As to when the slot was introduced well that is easy, probably at the time the adaptors were given the stud... I do not know (as yet) if the slot / stud is pure GWR or a BR concoction.

regards, Graham
 

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
I question the purpose of the slot as described by Steph... "Swindon-style" end boards had a button / collar stud at the very top of the board and that stud dropped into the slot in the end of the gangway rubbing plate - this slot / stud combination provided a means of supporting the gangway cover. As to when the slot was introduced well that is easy, probably at the time the adaptors were given the stud... I do not know (as yet) if the slot / stud is pure GWR or a BR concoction.

regards, Graham


Graham,

You're quite correct it appears I may have been led astray by some well-meaning 'expert' as Ian's pic in post #155 shows quite clearly the little slot in a gangway without adapters.

Apologies Heather, I'll get back in my box now. Graham's got a box of nice shiny new brads, if you'd care to do the honours...? :oops:

Steph
 
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