7mm Rob Pulham's Work Bench - Back (again) to the LNER 06 (MOK 8F)
- Thread starter Rob Pulham
- Start date
Dikitriki
Flying Squad
Rob Pulham's Work Bench - Back to the A3!!
Hi Rob
I might suggest you have another look at the smokebox door handrails. You do need to be careful here as the pattern/location changed slightly over time. On a number of A3s the smokebox door handrail was indeed slightly higher than that of the boiler, and where the boiler one curved round the front of the smokebox, it also curved slightly up as well. A quick trawl of my books turned up a picture of Papyrus in 1951 where the smokebox handrail is definitely higher than that of the boiler. A later period I know, but worth a second look.
Cheers
Richard
Rob Pulham said:After having a look through my library I have come to agree with Richard that the A3 's didn't have these rivets so I removed them. I haven't filled the holes just yet in case a photo to the contrary turns up.
Meanwhile I have done further work on the boiler detailing although I wish I had fitted the hand rails to the sides of the boiler before the smoke box door as I will now need to lower the handrail on the door to line up with the ones on the smoke box as they curl around.
Hi Rob
I might suggest you have another look at the smokebox door handrails. You do need to be careful here as the pattern/location changed slightly over time. On a number of A3s the smokebox door handrail was indeed slightly higher than that of the boiler, and where the boiler one curved round the front of the smokebox, it also curved slightly up as well. A quick trawl of my books turned up a picture of Papyrus in 1951 where the smokebox handrail is definitely higher than that of the boiler. A later period I know, but worth a second look.
Cheers
Richard
Rob Pulham
Western Thunderer
Phill Dyson said:Nice to see a bit more done Rob.
I have always fancied an A4 (probably Sir Nigel Gresley in 1970's preservation livery )..........but that would be stretching the bounds of modelers licence for Withercombe (even by my standards) ;D
Phill :wave:
I must confess an A4 is on my desires list, maybe next year
but it will be one with full side skirts for me, probably 2509 in silver grey. But strangely the apple green with black smoke box to the first boiler band (as opposed to the odd one or two painted with the parabolic curve) also appeals too. To be fair I suspect A4's are to me what Wessies are to you I would like the full set!!
Rob Pulham
Western Thunderer
Rob Pulham's Work Bench - Back to the A3!!
Thanks Richard, a closer look may save me a job. I have managed to find one head on photo of Papyrus in the late 20's but it is so poor I cannot be sure of the handrail position
Dikitriki said:
Thanks Richard, a closer look may save me a job.
I have managed to find one head on photo of Papyrus in the late 20's but it is so poor I cannot be sure of the handrail position
Rob Pulham
Western Thunderer
It may be a good job I didn't fill in the rivet holes, someone thas just posted this on the LNER forum http://www.lner.info/forums/rob-ps-7mm-workbench-2750-papyrus-t3050s30.html at the bottom of the page.
I have asked if they have a higher resolution copy as I am not entirely convinced that they are actually rivets.
I have asked if they have a higher resolution copy as I am not entirely convinced that they are actually rivets.
Rob Pulham
Western Thunderer
28ten said:
The puzzling bit is that it doesn't appear to go right down the casing, which is why I questioned if they were in fact rivets. Unless it's had part of the casing off and replaced, either riveted or un-riveted depending on which bit it was?
I have asked if the poster has any more history on the photo.
28ten
Guv'nor
Possibly it started life as flush rivets and what you see is a repair? its one of those things that in the absence of conclusive proof you can argue the toss either way. I have done this sort of thing and the model ends up on the shelf of doom 
sometimes you just have to do the best research possible and accept the uncertainty and get on with the build 
sometimes you just have to do the best research possible and accept the uncertainty and get on with the build
Rob Pulham
Western Thunderer
I agree completely, I can leave it until almost the end and see if anything else turns up but at some point soon (I hope!!) I will have to make the decision and live with it as it has been on the bench far too long now. 
Dikitriki
Flying Squad
I'm sorry, I don't buy those as visible rivets. Flush rivet repair witness marks maybe, but think about the size compared to the vent securing bolts. We're talking very flat indeed, maybe .2mm wide in 7mm scale - and only on the fire box.
Oh, what fun!
Still waiting for a conclusive photo.........
Richard
Oh, what fun!
Still waiting for a conclusive photo.........
Richard
Dog Star
Western Thunderer
I think that the air will be Blue after all that extra effort ;D
Now there is a thought... how about a poll (or two) on the preferred colour and period for an A3 or an A4? I shall start with that spare tin of GER Ultramarine which Doncaster was using in June 1948.
regards Graham
Now there is a thought... how about a poll (or two) on the preferred colour and period for an A3 or an A4? I shall start with that spare tin of GER Ultramarine which Doncaster was using in June 1948.
regards Graham
Rob Pulham
Western Thunderer
Dikitriki said:
You must be a mind reader, that's exactly what I had considered doing when I took them out.
Rob Pulham
Western Thunderer
Dog Star said:
I would struggle there as I really like all the LNER colours for A4's, Grey, Green, Garter blue and Wartime black, the only ones I don't like are the BR colours.
Steph Dale
Western Thunderer
I'm not sure I can add much to this rivetting debate (groan...!), but I'd be happy if they were panel screws over the firebox. Just, for a minute, think about how the cladding would fit on a loco with a boiler shaped like that. You could easily form hoops, even tapered ones, for everything other than the firebox. But for the cladding at the rear, over the firebox, it'd be much easier to form it in two halves.
I can't say that's the case for certain, but I have spent a good half hour or so looking at the cladding joins of the preserved SR N15 'Sir Lamiel', and that loco has a row of panel screws all the way down the top of the boiler, because the cladding panels join on the top centre line.
Steph
I can't say that's the case for certain, but I have spent a good half hour or so looking at the cladding joins of the preserved SR N15 'Sir Lamiel', and that loco has a row of panel screws all the way down the top of the boiler, because the cladding panels join on the top centre line.
Steph
Dog Star
Western Thunderer
Rob Pulham said:
Robin, this discussion about rivets is worrying me somewhat... I grant that there maybe something along the centre line of the firebox, I doubt that what you can see are rivets. If we accept that whatever we are looking at is contemporary with the LNER period then the "thing" are not likely to be rivets... to close or set a rivet one needs to get to both sides and I doubt that the works had a rivetting dolly to set such small rivets over the length of the cladding sheet (and I am assuming that the LNER was not an user of pop-riveting). On the other hand, those "things" might well be round-head 1/4" BSW set screws, either through one sheet into a tapped hole in the other sheet or through both sheets into a tapped hole in a crinoline band.
Whilst this comment applies to kettles in the only correct colour of middle chrome green, much of the bolier / firebox cladding was fixed with such screws, particularly the jigsaw of plates on the firebox front, as was the small pieces of trim to the cylinder cladding.
If the LNER followed such practices, then the head of a 1/4" BSW screw is about 3/8" diameter and that corresponds to 9 thou in 7mm (be it FS or S7). Mind you, maybe the LNER thought that their fitters could not cope with such small taps and so made the "things" as 1/2" BSW... in which case the head would be 12 thou diameter.
regards, Graham
Rob Pulham
Western Thunderer
Hi Graham, that's pretty much the conclusion that I have reached. After asking for further info from the guy on the LNER forum I was pointed at several pictures in the NELPG WB Greenfield collection. I ultimately emailed a very helpful gent who came back and offer to sell me the 3 photo's in question but then went on to say that they didn't show rivets but screws much as you suggest.
Rob Pulham
Western Thunderer
Not blooming likely!!28ten said:So are you filling them all off ?
, I haven't much hair now. I may see what plain wire in the holes does before I just fill them in and forget