Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[mickoo]

60008 is almost certainly the 'Scotch Goods' which departed from Kings X goods at or around 3PM, Top shed often provided a Pacific for this turn as the engine was used the next day for a return express working from Newcastle.

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you, Mick. Yes, the Scotch Goods seems a likely candidate.

For today exclusively photos of the light engine movements on 27th March 1963 when the Kings Cross turntable was out of commission and locos were being turned at Hornsey. We've also seen all these locos in recent previous posts so I'll not repeat their details here but refer back to the posts on the previous page.

Two photos of WD 2-8-0 90439, (see post #2160), V2 2-6-2 60854, (post #2152), and A2 4-6-2 60533, (post #2148). recorded as down light at Holloway Road. However, surely they are "up" in which case I wonder why they've not been turned.







This is recorded as A4 60025 light down at Holloway Road on 27th March 1963 and I believe it's coupled to another A4, possibly 60006 which features on a train from Kings Cross probably later in the day. (Posts #2152 and #2155).



Having turned and on their way back to the Cross are A4s 60006 and 60025 (post #2148) at Holloway Road on 27th March 1963. Note the Brush Type 4/Class 47 lurking in the background.



Brian

 

[mickoo]

The last two photos are the same light engine movements, a pair of A4's and they're facing the right way and have not been turned, they've come from Top shed and taken the long way around to gain access to platforms 1-6.

The other three shots are interesting and not turned as yet, they look to be heading along the up goods which will cross over all the lines to join the down goods and gain access to Top Shed that way. But why the WD, it almost certainly didn't arrive at Kings X but at Goods & Mineral, which is right next to Top Shed. So why go all this way to gain access to it unless there's a critical cross over out of action, thus forcing all engines to take the long way around instead of the usual Belle Isle entry/exit from Top Shed.

 

[oldravendale]

The last two photos are the same light engine movements, a pair of A4's and they're facing the right way and have not been turned, they've come from Top shed and taken the long way around to gain access to platforms 1-6.

The other three shots are interesting and not turned as yet, they look to be heading along the up goods which will cross over all the lines to join the down goods and gain access to Top Shed that way. But why the WD, it almost certainly didn't arrive at Kings X but at Goods & Mineral, which is right next to Top Shed. So why go all this way to gain access to it unless there's a critical cross over out of action, thus forcing all engines to take the long way around instead of the usual Belle Isle entry/exit from Top Shed.

Thanks Mick.

The situation with the A4s makes perfect sense, I really ought to try to get some of these negs in to order which would help, but too much to scan and too little time....

However I remain confused by the others. Why would they be heading for Kings Cross which they clearly are without turning? We saw them heading for Hornsey in post #2152 - they seem to have just crossed over to the up lines and decided to go back which is very unlikely.

As for the WD I must admit that I'd made the assumption that he'd been at Goods and Mineral and simply joined the party.

It's most helpful to have your comments so thanks.

Brian

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

The other three shots are interesting and not turned as yet, they look to be heading along the up goods which will cross over all the lines to join the down goods and gain access to Top Shed that way. But why the WD, it almost certainly didn't arrive at Kings X but at Goods & Mineral, which is right next to Top Shed. So why go all this way to gain access to it unless there's a critical cross over out of action, thus forcing all engines to take the long way around instead of the usual Belle Isle entry/exit from Top Shed.

However I remain confused by the others. Why would they be heading for Kings Cross which they clearly are without turning? We saw them heading for Hornsey in post #2152 - they seem to have just crossed over to the up lines and decided to go back which is very unlikely.

As for the WD I must admit that I'd made the assumption that he'd been at Goods and Mineral and simply joined the party.

We could speculate until the cows come home about the movements of WD 90439 in the sequence of photos in posts #2148, #2152, #2160 and #2162 .

Out of interest do the six negatives of these three locos have frame numbers?

My hunch is they were photographed in this order. V2 60854 and A2 60533 were already in position and waiting for WD 90439 to join them (less track occupancy rather than send it as a solo loco) before moving off and crossing the lines to reach Hornsey.

 

[mickoo]

Dave we could, and what fun it would be

The problem is, there's no physical route between 4 and 5 at Holloway South; at this point up and down lines are run as individual routes with corresponding Holloway South Up and Down boxes opposite each other. The nearest cross over is Holloway North and the other is Belle Isle closer to Kings X.

To fit the sequence the V2 and A1 would have to come out of Kings X wrong road at some point to reach here and I can't see any signals on the signal box diagrams I have that woyld allow that. The same for the WD which would have to have come backward on the up goods to join the ensemble The V2 and A2 may also have come that way from Top shed whose entry/exit is the same as Goods & Mineral. Then the whole lot would have to move forward all the way to Belle Isle, cross back over to the down fast and then the down slow as seen in the last image.

I suppose you could do all that with special workings and a pilot, but, why do all that when you could work a bit further wrong road (about 5-800 yds) up the hill to Holloway North and do the cross over in one hit?

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks Dave and Mick for further and better suggestions about the light engine sequence. I've gone back to Tim's original notes and the sequence is: 90439 light engine Neg 21 img1785, 90439/60854/60523 (down) light Neg 22/23 (very similar so only neg 23 posted) img1786/1787, 60025 light down (we believe coupled to 60006) neg 24 img1788, 60523 light up neg 25 img1789, 60006 & 60025 light up neg 26 & 27 so some confusion here as there's only the one of the two locos coupled) img1791, 60006 & 60025 light up neg 28 img1774, 60533 light down to Hornsey to turn neg 29 img1775, 90439/60854/60533 locos to Hornsey & return to turn neg 30 img1776, 60006 4.21 Peterboro neg 31 img1777, 60523 light (down) to Hornsey to turn neg 32 img1778, 60025 4.35 Newcastle neg 33 img1779.

I've just noticed that there's a record on the notes of 90439 light up, Holloway Rd, on the same film but much earlier, as neg no 8. Its img1796 which I've yet just posted.

I can't easily get to the original negs right now and as we know sometimes Tim's notes are out of order. There's also a likelihood of a transcription error by me. Also there may be only one A2, 60523 or 60533 rather than the two Tim has noted. In fact on re-interpreting the notes I believe quite strongly these are all 60523.

When I have the opportunity I'll liberate the negs and ensure that they match the data and images.

Brian

 

[oldravendale]

While those of us concerned about such things sort out the sequence of the last few posts here are some more hopefully straightforward, ECML photos.

Two photos of A3 60107 Royal Lancer on a down parcels with a nice GW Siphon in tow at Holloway Road on 27th March 1963. It was previously seen in posts #2013 and #2028. To repeat the previous info it was at Kings Cross Shed from October 1960, thence to Grantham in June 1963 from where it was withdrawn at the beginning of September the same year. It was disposed of at Doncaster Works the following month.





Another pair of photos of A2 60523 Sun Castle on an up passenger at Holloway Road on 27th March 1963. This loco was discussed in posts #2162 and #2152 To repeat the information it was at it's final shed, New England, and was withdrawn in June 1963. (SLS). It went in to Doncaster Works for cutting up at the end of August. (BR Database).






Here's WD 90439 again, light up at Holloway Road on 27th March 1963. (Again this photo from the opposite side of the station at Holloway Road begs the question why it's not been turned at Hornsey as we know the Kings Cross turntable was out of commission. Mick suggested that there may have been a pilot involved in these light engine movements and perhaps this WD was it.) The history of this engine has been discussed previously in posts #2152, #2160 and #2162. A different view of the row of apparently new Ford Anglias on the left of the frame.



Brian

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Thanks Dave and Mick for further and better suggestions about the light engine sequence. I've gone back to Tim's original notes and the sequence is: 90439 light engine Neg 21 img1785, 90439/60854/60523 (down) light Neg 22/23 (very similar so only neg 23 posted) img1786/1787, 60025 light down (we believe coupled to 60006) neg 24 img1788, 60523 light up neg 25 img1789, 60006 & 60025 light up neg 26 & 27 so some confusion here as there's only the one of the two locos coupled) img1791, 60006 & 60025 light up neg 28 img1774, 60533 light down to Hornsey to turn neg 29 img1775, 90439/60854/60533 locos to Hornsey & return to turn neg 30 img1776, 60006 4.21 Peterboro neg 31 img1777, 60523 light (down) to Hornsey to turn neg 32 img1778, 60025 4.35 Newcastle neg 33 img1779.

I've just noticed that there's a record on the notes of 90439 light up, Holloway Rd, on the same film but much earlier, as neg no 8. Its img1796 which I've yet just posted.

I can't easily get to the original negs right now and as we know sometimes Tim's notes are out of order. There's also a likelihood of a transcription error by me. Also there may be only one A2, 60523 or 60533 rather than the two Tim has noted. In fact on re-interpreting the notes I believe quite strongly these are all 60523.

When I have the opportunity I'll liberate the negs and ensure that they match the data and images.

While those of us concerned about such things sort out the sequence of the last few posts here are some more hopefully straightforward, ECML photos.

Thanks Brian . The frame sequence is just one of those anoracky nerdy forensic things for me.

I just feel with a number of photographs taken from the same location on the same day it would be possible to recreate and imagine the day as seen by Tim - sounds silly I know .

From the images thus far Tim obviously started on the platform/cattle pen Lough Road (eastern side) of the tracks and by the time of the photos in post #2168 the sun is almost overhead. At some point Tim crossed over to end up on the Stock Orchard Street (western side) of the tracks to follow the sun when it appeared as seen in the first photo in post #2162.

Also we've seen 60523 heading towards KX (post #2168) photographed from the eastern side of the tracks only to see it later in the day (post #2162) photographed from the western side of the tracks.

 

[oldravendale]

Dave - if I suggested that the research in to how things went on that 27th March were in any way nerdy or of limited interest I apologise. I really mean that our interest in working this through may be of limited interest to others but is important and fascinating to some of us - certainly me included. I'll look those negs out and confirm the sequence including trains before the light engines we've picked up on. There are a few light engines quite early in the sequence which may start to illuminate what's going on.

I'll be back shortly!

Brian

 

[Dog Star]

... if I suggested that the research in to how things went on that 27th March were in any way nerdy or of limited interest I apologise.

I think that no apology to WT-ers is necessary, getting the facts recorded accurately - by getting the ducks in a row - is crucial for future historians.

... I really mean that our interest in working this through may be of limited interest to others..

Do not count me in that qualification. Come to think of it, I hear no deafening / see no visible complaint about the comments so far.

Brian, please keep posting the material for Mick and Dave (and others) to chew thoroughly.

regards, Graham

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Going back to the 80’s and working at Kings Cross, I have a vague recollection of being told that new cars were delivered onto that Holloway Road platform.

The platform was at A in this picture

In this picture the circled building at that time,(an old tram depot I believe) always had large ‘Ford’ branding facing the railway. It’s possible that the two are connected in that new cars were delivered onto that platform, and then subsequently moved into the tram shed for preparation and distribution to London area dealerships.

I've done a bit more digging into the building you circled in the lower photo and it turns appears it was either a coach or engineering works. One source does cite a victorian tram repair depot.

However the larger building immediately to the right (of more interest to me) was originally built by the LGOC (London General Omnibus Company) to repair their horse buses. In 1911 this ceased after the final horse buses were withdrawn and the building later used as an engineering works. More can be seen here as can the LGOC inscription over one of the entrances when you scroll through a few images.

Apologies for the diversion.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Dave - if I suggested that the research in to how things went on that 27th March were in any way nerdy or of limited interest I apologise. I really mean that our interest in working this through may be of limited interest to others but is important and fascinating to some of us - certainly me included. I'll look those negs out and confirm the sequence including trains before the light engines we've picked up on. There are a few light engines quite early in the sequence which may start to illuminate what's going on.

I'll be back shortly!

Hi Brian, no apology was required . I understand for many viewers the subject matter of the photos, descriptions and the disposition of the locomotives is of more interest.

It's just in my case I tend to look into the photo as a whole to see what story it's telling me. When a sequence appears such as these on the 27th March 1963, it piqued my analytical mind into placing the negative reel into sequence and provide (for me) an interesting story of the train movements on that particular day.

As I can make out it's not often (but could be wrong) you see a sequence with as many photos like this taken on the same day at the same location shedding light on operations with the top shed turntable out of action as noted in earlier posts.

 

[simond]

As someone without any self-imposed need to understand the minutiae of what happened on that day, may I just say I am enjoying the spectacle and looking forward to the conclusion.

I have nothing to offer the discussion, but please don’t apologise for it taking place. It’s educational and interesting.

and I like the photos.

 

[Martin Shaw]

Brian
I can only speak for myself but I am in accord with others in fully supporting you in this. It is more than just railway pictures but a most valuable record of a way of (transport) life sixty years ago so very different from nowadays. I enjoy looking at the pictures and making the odd modest contribution, a long way from limited interest, nuff said really.
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

What a delightful set of responses! I was going to suggest that we take this off line and deal with it by way of PMs as it looked as though it could have been a bit of a rabbit hole but there seem sufficient numbers interested in discussing further details so here it will stay. At least it keeps all the information about the photos in one place.

Graham, Simon and Martin - thank you for expressing your enthusiasm for the subject. Yorkie Dave and I are not alone, it appears and Mickoo has already demonstrated his interest. While I'm at it, Dave, may I please thank you for your info about Holloway Road. More interesting stuff!

I'm unlikely to get the time today to be able to move this on but will do so as soon as an hour or so is available. It's also possible that we have some other sequences which may benefit from a review of the subjects in order - I'm thinking here about the shots on the WCML in particular although we may find that there are other groups on the ECML and BR (WR) - perhaps even the Southern. However I'm getting ahead of myself.

In general Tim recorded details by a sequence of film numbers, at least up to mid 60s. Some films have no ID at all, though, and those we have to make up for ourselves. Although I have film numbers there's no obvious sequence without considerable further work which accounts for the somewhat random nature of the presentation. The benefit, of course, is that it brings considerable variety to the thread.

Brian

 

[oldravendale]

Continuing the theme...

Here's the sequence in neg number order as thumbnails, It'll take more than one post but as long as they remain in order this will accomplish our objectives, I think. Each of the thumbnails has an abbreviated version of Tim's original note as the description.

Here's the first tranche

 

[oldravendale]

Second tranche

 

[oldravendale]

Third and final tranche. Note that on img1776 Tim records the A2 as 6053. I interpreted this to be 60533 but I might be wrong - it could well be 60523.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Thanks for posting these Brian.

After some study I wonder if there might be another negative reel for this day as for whatever reasons unknown to us there doesn't appear to be any photos of 60532 and 60854 arriving or waiting to join 90439 (img1785 and 1786). Unless, like alot of us, Tim became selective with the shots in case he ran out of film given it's relative expense at the time. .

Third and final tranche. Note that on img1776 Tim records the A2 as 6053. I interpreted this to be 60533 but I might be wrong - it could well be 60523.

I think the A2 in img1785 is 60532 Blue Peter as the bottom of the last digit appears straight on magnification (crop below). Unlikely to be 60523 as we saw this loco earlier in the day heading towards KX (img1794 and 1795) then later in the day backing down to KX (img1778). And 60532 has different smoke deflectors to 60523.



And some other observations.

img1788 will be 60025 and 60010 as there appears to be a loco behind 60025 and would match the sequence in img1791 and 1774.

img1796 - 90439 is obviously heading towards KX to do something as it has been signalled only to reappear later in the day (img1785) to join 60532 and 60854.

img1794 - 60523 - I see someone has crashed into and destroyed part of the brick wall in the background at some point...

img1803 - 60158 - you can just make out the roof of another train behind this one (crop below) which doesn't appear in the predeecing image img1802 . Makes me wonder if 60158 is being held at signals (out of view on the left) and the train alongside pulled up afterwards at the signals in view.



.....and obvoiusly Tim crossed the tracks between images img1780 and img1781. By the time of img1799 the shadows are lengthening.

However all this is purely my conjecture......