Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[oldravendale]

It's good to have personal memories like yours for this thread, Roger. Thank you.

A right mixture today - the last of the Holloway Road photos and a few at Paddington which rather fall short of Tim's usually high standard.

A1 60158 Aberdonian on an up parcels at Holloway Road on 27th March 1963. It was allocated to Doncaster Shed where it was withdrawn in December 1964. (SLS). It went to Hughes Bolckows, Battleship Wharf, North Blyth where it was scrapped by the end of February 1965





At Paddington on 9th February 1963 and Castle 5089 Westminster Abbey on the 9.05am Gloucester train. It was allocated to Stafford Road at the time, moving to Oxley in September (although the SLS advises it went to St Blazey - most unlikely in my opinion) where it was withdrawn in November 1964. (BR Database). It was scrapped at Cashmore's, Great Bridge, during February 1965.







Another Castle, 5093 Upton Castle, on the 9.15am Worcester train at Paddington. Although undated this is probably 9th February 1963. It was allocated to Old Oak Common, confirmed by the shed plate, from where it was withdrawn in September. (SLS). It was disposed of at Swindon Works During October.














Brian

 

[Arun Sharma]

WHTS states that 5089 was at 84A [Wolverhampton Stafford Road] in Dec 62 and transferred to 2B [Oxley] in Sep 63. It was stored at Oxley after withdrawal from Nov 64 to Jan 65 and scrapped [as stated] at Cashmores, Gt Bridge in Feb 65.

Regarding 5093, there is a handwritten note in my copy of WHTS that it was sold to Cox & Danks, Langley Green in Mar 63. Whether 5093 was returned to Swindon for scrapping is possible but perhaps some doubt exists. I would think that someone who attended one of Swindon's scrapline tours at that time could confirm the Swindon scrapping date of Oct 63.

 

[SimonT]

The Allocations book shows 5089 to OXY 9 Sep 63. No further entries.
5093 was at OOC at the start of the year, then Cond 23 Sep and Scrapped 8 Oct at SDN.

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks Arun and Simon for your clarifications. Much appreciated.

Staying on Western lines today.

A view of Southall Station on 9th February 1963 with Castle 7006 Lydford Castle approaching. This has been in these pages previously, in post #1185. Lydford Castle had been an Old Oak loco since March 1962, being withdrawn from there in mid December 1963. It went to Bird's, Risca where it was scrapped in August 1964.



Hall Class 5919 Worsley Hall on an up freight at Southall on 9th February 1963. This was an Old Oak Common engine at the time of the photo being finally withdrawn from there at the end of August. (SLS). It went to Cashmore's, Newport where it was scrapped in July 1964. (BR Database).



Hall 5951 Clyffe Hall and Castle 5038 Morlais Castle inside the cathedral which was the roundhouse at Old Oak Common on 24th March 1963. Home shed for the Hall had been Gloucester Horton Road since November 1952 and the allocation is confirmed by the 85B shed plate. It was withdrawn in early May 1964 from the Gloucester shed. (SLS). It went to Cashmore's, Great Bridge for scrapping which was completed in August 1964. (BR Database). The Castle has appeared previously in post #817. It was allocated to Reading from November 1962 and was withdrawn in September of 1963. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore's, Newport, in June 1964. (BR Database).



Brian

 

[daifly]

Hi Brian
Your data for 5951 (which I could and should have checked for myself) solves a mystery. I have a copy of a Colourrail slide purporting to be 5951 at Oxford on 4Sep65 - more than a year after its scrapping date. The loco is devoid of all name and numberplates and has a crudely painted number on the smokebox which looks like 5951 but clearly cannot be. The other big anomalies are that the Colourrail loco has a Collett tender and the loco has lost the steam leak which is evident in the RH steam pipe in almost every photo of 5951 from late 1962-on!
I have a particular interest in the real Clyffe Hall as it's only 3 miles from home and the son of a good friend married the owner's daughter!
Dave

 

[Dan Randall]

That “Castle” in the background of the last photo looks a bit washed out - it looks like it’s still in primer!


Regards

Dan

 

[oldravendale]

I'm pleased to have helped solve a mystery, Dave, particularly when it's normally me asking for help!

As for your comment about the Castle, Dan, it's purely because of the light striking the Castle whereas the picture subjects are in relative shadow.

A couple more in the shed and one in the yard...

Grouped around one of the Old Oak Common turntables on 24th March 1963 and almost in silhouette are three locos, Hall 4914 Cranmore Hall, 61XX 6163 and one other which is unidentified. 4914 had been a St Philips Marsh engine since 1956 and was withdrawn from there in November 1963. (SLS). It was scrapped at Birds, Risca, Newport by the end of April 1964. (Rail UK). 6163 was at home at Old Oak, moving locally to Southall in October 1964 where it was withdrawn in October 1965. (SLS). It also went to Birds in Newport where it was scrapped by the end of February 1966. (Rail UK).



Another group around a turntable at Old Oak on 24th March 1963 comprising 57XX 9659, 94XX 9411, 15XX 1507 and one other, probably a 61XX 2-6-2T next to a Castle. We saw 9659 previously in post #1204 again at Old Oak in May 1963. It was a Slough engine, moving to Southall in April 1965 and was withdrawn at the end of June. (SLS) It went to T W Ward, Briton Ferry where it was scrapped by the end of October. (Rail UK). 9411 had been at Old Oak since 1951 and was withdrawn in June 1965. (SLS). It also went to T W Ward, Briton Ferry where it was scrapped by the end of October 1966. 1507 was another resident of Old Oak seen previously in post #1819. It had been at Old Oak since 1960 and was withdrawn from there at the end of November 1963. (SLS). It was another dispatched to T W Ward at Briton Ferry where it was scrapped by the end of May 1964. (Rail UK).



Castle 5014 Goodrich Castle in the yard at Old Oak Common on 24th March 1963. Seen previously in post #913 5014 was allocated to Old Oak in 1964 - in fact had been since 1942 - and moved from there to Tyseley in June 1964. It was withdrawn from Tyseley in early February 1965 (SLS) and went to Cashmore's Great Bridge where it was scrapped in the following May. (BR Database).




Brian

 

[oldravendale]

More in Old Oak Yard.

Old Oak yard on 24th March 1963 with 7018 Drysllwyn Castle, last seen in post #1218. The Drysllwyn Castle name persists at Didcot but not on 7018 which was allocated to Old Oak Common at the time of the photo and withdrawn from there in September 1963. (SLS). It also went to Cashmore's Great Bridge where it was scrapped in June 1964. (BR Database).



Finally for today one of the magnificent 47XX 2-8-0's, No 4701 in Old Oak Yard on 24th March 1963. It had been on Old Oak Common's allocation from November 1962 following a brief sojourn at Southall and was withdrawn in September 1963. (SLS). It went to Cashmore's, Newport for scrap which was completed in August 1965. (BR Database).



Brian

 

[oldravendale]

With apologies - these should have been included with the previous post.

On 14th October 1978 Royal Scot 6115, Scots Guardsman, was the loco on The Anniversary Express. The organisers were Dinting Railway Centre and the train ran from Guide Bridge to York and return. Although the location of these photos is not confirmed I believe they may have been taken at York.











Brian

 

[Dave Holt]

The last four are definitely the south end of York, presumably getting ready for the return run.
I travelled on a 6115 hauled train around that time, which went over the Hope Valley line and via Sheffield. Not sure if it was the same train but I recall the loco put up a most lack-lustre performance and was generally disappointing considering Scots had a great reputation - and as seen more recently on the main line.
Dave.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

The first one is also the south end at York as the lattice girder bridge is just visible in the background.

 

[oldravendale]

I've now returned from holiday and caught up with the happenings on WT while I've been away. The next series of photos are a break from the previous fare and were all taken at Holloway Road on 5th March 1977, by the look of it when there was some demolition/building work going on.

Thanks for your comment, Dave. I've heard one or two stories about poor performance by the Royal Scots in preservation which is a surprise considering, as you say, how well regarded they were in service. As a side note although it's great that Scots Guardsman was preserved it always rankled me in the early days to see it in a spurious LMS livery when it wasn't rebuilt until 1950. However, I acknowledge that if you are the owner you have the absolute right to paint it whatever colour you like.

And Yorkie Dave. I appreciate the confirmation abut the location. Thank you.

First is an unidentified Class 40 (or English Electric Type 4 if you prefer). (Edit) Probably 40059. Holloway Road on 5th March 1977.



Again Holloway Road on 5th March 1977 and a series of Class 31 (Brush Type 2) passing on a train which may or may not be associated with the ongoing works. The loco is 31219, the erstwhile D5644 which was a Finsbury Park engine, not moving to Tinsley until July 1981 and withdrawn in February 2000. Reference is also made to a severe fire caused by electrical overload or arcs although the info is very sketchy. Was thus the reason for withdrawal? Disposal took place at T J Thomson & Son Ltd at Stockton in June 2003. (All BR Database).







Finally an unidentified Class 47 (Brush Type 4), light engine again at Holloway Road on 5th March 1977.



Brian

 

[LarryG]

Re 'Scots Guardsman', I covered the initial run on 28th September 1978 and based myself at Chinley for the return run. After it departed, i went off to borrow a No.8 welding rod from a local garage to break into my car in the goods yard! *** The owner said he had to watch this and brought another welding road with him. I got into the Datsun first at which point he asked me if I was from Liverpool..... I wonder why..

** I had passed the time listening to the car radio with keys in the ignition ~ and locked myself out.

 

[oldravendale]

Larry - . And I'm truly not being cruel...

Continuing a theme.

I read the loco as Class 47 47544. Once again at Holloway Road on 5th March 1977. If I have the number correct it had been D1593, then 47025 before becoming 47544 in February 1975. In 1977 it was a York (North) engine, moving to Eastfield in May 1988 before withdrawal early February 1990. It was scrapped at MV Metals, Springburn, in July 1991. (All BR Database).






Class 40 40042 again at Holloway Road on 5th March 1977. It started life as D242. This loco was based at Longsight so I'm guessing the train was inter-regional. It was withdrawn from Longsight in December 1980 and went to Derby Works for scrapping which was completed in March 1981.



Finally and still at Holloway Road on 5th March 1977 is an unidentified Deltic. I'm hopeful that someone, possibly Mickoo, may be able to identify the loco from specific details, but I'll not hold my breath!



Brian

 

[Heather Kay]

The weathering pattern on the Mk2/3 coaches in the first image is interesting. Filth wrapped around the ends, missed entirely by the carriage cleaning plant.

 

[mickoo]

Finally and still at Holloway Road on 5th March 1977 is an unidentified Deltic. I'm hopeful that someone, possibly Mickoo, may be able to identify the loco from specific details, but I'll not hold my breath!

View attachment 190195

Brian

You need to make it harder than that

It's 55 022 Royal Scots Grey.

Here's why, there are only three Deltics with single line name plates and a crest above them, all of varying lengths and crest sizes/shapes.

55 004 'Queens Own Highlander' has an oval crest and the name plate extends significantly past the two small body side vents above.
55 008 'The Green Howards' The shortest of the three nameplates and barely extends past the vents with a tall crest above, so tall that the name plate sits much lower, almost a full nameplate depth lower; below.
55 002 ' Royal Scots Grey' mid length name plate which extends a little past the grills and a slightly smaller crest than 008 with a regular height fitted nameplate.

As a rule of thumb, Deltic nameplate depths are roughly the same depth ( nameplates are 7½" if I recall correctly but I've a niggle some were marginally different) as the three grills above and a standard height will have the depth of the grills/nameplate distance between the two features, aka 7½". The Green Howards would have a gap of approximately 15".

On top of all that, I'm also sure the last digit is a 2 and that was my first instinct (not that counts for much ) when viewing the image before checking the name plate archive.

 

[40057]

You need to make it harder than that

It's 55 022 Royal Scots Grey.

Here's why, there are only three Deltics with single line name plates and a crest above them, all of varying lengths and crest sizes/shapes.

55 004 'Queens Own Highlander' has an oval crest and the name plate extends significantly past the two small body side vents above.
55 008 'The Green Howards' The shortest of the three nameplates and barely extends past the vents with a tall crest above, so tall that the name plate sits much lower, almost a full nameplate depth lower; below.
55 002 ' Royal Scots Grey' mid length name plate which extends a little past the grills and a slightly smaller crest than 008 with a regular height fitted nameplate.

As a rule of thumb, Deltic nameplate depths are roughly the same depth ( nameplates are 7½" if I recall correctly but I've a niggle some were marginally different) as the three grills above and a standard height will have the depth of the grills/nameplate distance between the two features, aka 7½". The Green Howards would have a gap of approximately 15".

On top of all that, I'm also sure the last digit is a 2 and that was my first instinct (not that counts for much ) when viewing the image before checking the name plate archive.

I also think it’s ‘22 and came to that conclusion independently before reading Mickoo’s post. I would additionally cite the black (not yellow) panel in place of the reporting code display window. I seem to remember from university days in 1978, 55022 still retained the black panel later than other members of the class (and may have kept it until withdrawn?).

 

[mickoo]

I also think it’s ‘22 and came to that conclusion independently before reading Mickoo’s post. I would additionally cite the black (not yellow) panel in place of the reporting code display window. I seem to remember from university days in 1978, 55022 still retained the black panel later than other members of the class (and may have kept it until withdrawn?).

Good point, as far as I know only #22 and #8 kept their domino codes until the end, the rest were blanked over.

 

[Martin Shaw]

A couple of things to add, the new PSB at the Cross was opened in 1977 so the works all around were obviously connected with rearrangements for that scheme.
My own experience with 46115 on the main line suggests that any lack of ability in it's earliest days has been fully overcome, I was on the footplate when we had a storming run from Perth to Inverness, 30mph at Drumochter with 11 on is good by any steam standards. My friend who knows 46100 better would also agree that the 2 Royal Scots go well. As for colour, it's only a coat of paint and therefore easily changed.
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

That weathering, Heather, I thought was the ends of the coaches painted black! That's a useful bit of weathering detail so thank you.

Mick - once again I'm in your debt. I'll try to find a more difficult prototype next time! Thanks for the confirmation and additional detail 40057 too.

Martin. Thanks for the associated info re-the PSB at Kings Cross. That accounts for the changes at Holloway Road as recorded here by Tim. Thanks too for restoring the reputation of 46115. I remember so well the Scots hammering through Harrow & Wealdstone with 11 or often more on. And as I said regarding the livery, it's up to the owner to paint the loco however he likes. I'm just expressing a personal niggle.

Class 31 31237 on what appears to be a spoil train at Holloway Road on 5th March 1977 probably associated with the PSB work at Kings Cross. This was previously D5664 and in 1977 was allocated to Finsbury Park before moving to Gateshead in February 1978. Withdrawal followed in June 2000 and it was scrapped at T J Thomson & Sons, Stockton, in September 2004. (All BR Database).



Here's 55022, Royal Scots Grey, the erstwhile D9000 again at Holloway Road on 5th March 1977.



Two of another Deltic, this time 55018 Ballymoss, previously D9018, on 11th March 1977 at Holloway Road. It was a Finsbury Park engine for its whole life, being withdrawn in October 1981. It was one of the less fortunate examples being cut up at Doncaster Works in January 1982. (All BR Database).





Brian