Martin Shaw
Western Thunderer
RE #1875/6, both of these are Holloway South, Tim was probably leaning against the corner of the South Up signalbox. 60048 is on the Up Goods and 60148 on the Up Main.
Martin
Martin
Prototype Tim Mills' Photos
- Thread starter oldravendale
- Start date
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Thank you for your confirmation, Martin. At least I got "Holloway" right!
This warning has just appeared on the BR Database site.
As you'll be aware I rely on this site for my basic info so once we lose it or the rest of the month I'll not publish any more photos - I can obtain the data elsewhere but the time involved is considerable and really unproductive.
Now an excursion to the LMS.
45000 & 45315 in the yard outside Willesden long shed (there were two sheds on the site at Willesden, one a long shed and the other a roundhouse) with an EE Type 1 diesel alongside. 24th March 1963. 45000 was a Crewe South engine at the time, confirmed by the shed plate, and after moving around for a while ended up at Lostock Hall where it was withdrawn at the end of October 1967. (SLS). It then went in to preservation, a further career which is detailed elsewhere. 45315 was not so lucky. It was also a Crewe South engine (shed plate present) at the time of the photo and was withdrawn from there at the end of August 1963. (SLS). It went to Crewe Works for scrapping which was completed during October. (BR Database).
Here's one of the magnificent Fowler 2-6-4 tanks, No 42350 in the yard at Willesden on 24th March 1963. This was allocated to Willesden at the time, moved around a bit and ended up at Stafford in July 1964 where it was withdrawn in February 1965. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore's, Great Bridge, in the following May. (BR Database).
Willesden was always awash with Black 5s (and 8Fs) and here's another, but of the later version. 44713 is in the yard at Willesden on 24th March 1963. It was allocated Northampton and ended up at Lostock Hall in July 1967 via a couple of sheds on the way. It was a late survivor, being withdrawn in early August 1968. (SLS). It was disposed of at Draper's, Hull, by the end of March 1969.
And yet another of the later Black 5s, 44897, again in Willesden Yard on 24th March 1963. It was a Rugby engine and moved around a lot before finally residing at Carnforth in August 1967 where it was withdrawn on the same day in August 1968 as 44713 above. It went to Cohen's at Kettering where it was scrapped by the end of the year. (BR Database).
Brian
This warning has just appeared on the BR Database site.
Important Notice!!!
This website has been under a Denial of Service attack from Romania for the last few days and these attacks have caused the web resources to become nearly exhausted (96%) for July.
This means that, any time soon, this website will become unavailable until 1st August because of miserable thieves trying to get membership data (there isn't any!)
I apologise in advance - I have tried a number of things to prevent this but I will have to migrate to cloudflare as soon as possible to prevent further attacks.
Please be patient in the meantime. I've not died!
I have sent a note to the author of the site expressing my sadness that he's been attacked in this way.As you'll be aware I rely on this site for my basic info so once we lose it or the rest of the month I'll not publish any more photos - I can obtain the data elsewhere but the time involved is considerable and really unproductive.
Now an excursion to the LMS.
45000 & 45315 in the yard outside Willesden long shed (there were two sheds on the site at Willesden, one a long shed and the other a roundhouse) with an EE Type 1 diesel alongside. 24th March 1963. 45000 was a Crewe South engine at the time, confirmed by the shed plate, and after moving around for a while ended up at Lostock Hall where it was withdrawn at the end of October 1967. (SLS). It then went in to preservation, a further career which is detailed elsewhere. 45315 was not so lucky. It was also a Crewe South engine (shed plate present) at the time of the photo and was withdrawn from there at the end of August 1963. (SLS). It went to Crewe Works for scrapping which was completed during October. (BR Database).
Here's one of the magnificent Fowler 2-6-4 tanks, No 42350 in the yard at Willesden on 24th March 1963. This was allocated to Willesden at the time, moved around a bit and ended up at Stafford in July 1964 where it was withdrawn in February 1965. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore's, Great Bridge, in the following May. (BR Database).
Willesden was always awash with Black 5s (and 8Fs) and here's another, but of the later version. 44713 is in the yard at Willesden on 24th March 1963. It was allocated Northampton and ended up at Lostock Hall in July 1967 via a couple of sheds on the way. It was a late survivor, being withdrawn in early August 1968. (SLS). It was disposed of at Draper's, Hull, by the end of March 1969.
And yet another of the later Black 5s, 44897, again in Willesden Yard on 24th March 1963. It was a Rugby engine and moved around a lot before finally residing at Carnforth in August 1967 where it was withdrawn on the same day in August 1968 as 44713 above. It went to Cohen's at Kettering where it was scrapped by the end of the year. (BR Database).
Brian
Arun Sharma
Western Thunderer
Does anyone know what the elevated structure visible behind the cab of 44897 is?
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
I believe that's the ash disposal plant, Arun. This is from memory but I believe the small tubs of ash were hoisted to the top and then tipped in to mineral (or similar) wagons... But I may, of course, be wrong...
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Think it’s been discussed before recently, mind I can’t remember what I had for breakfast
Anyway it’s an ash waste elevator thingamabob for tipping small ash trucks into standard gauge wagons if I recall correctly.
Roger Pound
Western Thunderer
I was delighted to see the portrait of what was perhaps Fowler's finest and most efficient design, the 4P 2-6-4T. In the late fifties there was a water supply problem at Leicester Shed (15C) and some locos, including the local 2-6-4T's 42330 and 42331 were sent to Coalville Shed (either 17C or 15D - the code changed sometime in that period), for boiler wash-outs. A Coalville driver of my acquaintance told me that they were delightful to drive and they rode like sitting in an arm chair. These particular locos were used on the Rugby-Leicester shuttle regularly until the line was closed and then appeared on other local services before withdrawal in 1961 and 1962 respectively.
Thanks for returning to the LMS/Midland Region. I trust you will not mind another of my trips down memory lane, Brian, but I'll desist in future if you so wish.
Roger.
Thanks for returning to the LMS/Midland Region. I trust you will not mind another of my trips down memory lane, Brian, but I'll desist in future if you so wish.
Roger.
Yorkshire Dave
Western Thunderer
Ian@StEnochs
Western Thunderer
showing exactly why guards were required for the glazing!
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Thank you, Mick, for your confirmation about the structure at Willesden.
Roger, Larry and any others who may want to contribute - please keep those reminiscences coming!
Both Daves, Ian and David. Thanks for your observations. More of those too, please.
9F 92144 and an unidentified WD 2-8-0 light at Holloway Road on 26th March 1963. The 9F was previously in post #2023 where it was photographed at Wood Green. This was based at New England from 9th March, moving to Colwick by way of Langwith Junction. It was withdrawn from Colwick in December 1965 (SLS) and was scrapped in April 1966 at T W Ward, Beighton. (BR Database).
61XX 2-6-2T 6108 at Paddington on 6th March 1963. The SLS record this at Cardiff Canton between October 1960 and September 1964 when it moved to Oxford where it was withdrawn in August 1965. The Cardiff allocation is most unlikely in March 1963 if it was seen at work in London and I suspect that the SLS info is transposed from another engine. In fact the Locoshed Book for November/December 1959 shows the allocation as Slough (the SLS says Old Oak Common) and the volume for May/June 1964 shows the allocation as Southall. I reckon the Locoshed Books are confirming that this loco was , broadly speaking, London based for the whole period. Rail UK agrees it was withdrawn from Oxford in August 1965 and then went to Bird's, Bynea, where it was scrapped by the end of November 1965. This agrees with the entries in WHTS.
The WR Allocation books show 6108 was based as follows.
1957, 1958. Slough,
4-12 Nov 59 Didcot
Dec 59 OOC
5 Jul 60 Whitland
13 Sep 60 Radyr
Oct 61 Overhaul, poss Wolv (It is very indistinct)
7 Nov 61 Didcot
19 Dec 61 to Dec 63 Southall.
No further records.
Radyr is a very strange allocation, well Whitland isn't much better!
An undated Blencowe photo of 6108 at Radyr and it has the lion & wheel logo. It has an 88B shed plate visible which Radyr became in September 1960. It was seen on a shed bash at Radyr in July 1961 with an 88B shedplate. 6108 was seen at Caerphilly works in Oct 61 and Southall in Feb 63 by which time it had acquired the later logo. I suspect that it was Southall allocated when the photo was taken.
Currently there is no evidence that any 61XX was attached to Cardiff Canton in the period from October 1960 to September 1964. In fact the shed closed on 10th September 1962 so any suggestion of that allocation is is spurious. The sightings go as follows:
6 April 1958. Slough. 81B shed plate.
4 October 1959. Slough. 81B shed plate.
There's no record of it being seen at Didcot in November 1959 but it appears that the allocation only lasted ten days. I can't find any record of it at Old Oak in December 1959 either, possibly again because the allocation period was so short.
23 July 1961. Radyr. 88B shed plate. (as recorded by Dave).
I can't locate any first hand sitings at Southall in February 1962
21 October 1962. Southall. A query against the 81C shed plate maybe because the loco wasn't carrying one.
17 March 1963. Southall. Still no confirmation of a shed plate.
12 January 1964. Southall. 81C confirmed.
27 September 1964. Oxford. 81F shed plate.
28 March 1965. Oxford. 81F shed plate.
Oxford closed 3 January 1966 and 6108 was not among the engines withdrawn and stored there on 9 January. The record of it being scrapped in November 1965 therefore fits quite nicely.
There's a reference to a 61XX being on the allocation of Whitland on 28 June 1958 although the number is not confirmed.
However 6114 was noted there and carrying an 87H plate on 22 October 1961. It was also noted as allocated around this period to Severn Tunnel Junction and Landore so 6114 is likely to be the 61XX allocated to Whitland in 1958.
6114: 1957 starts with it allocated to Ebbw Junction. 24 July it goes into Caerphilly Works and 20 Sep sees it back at Ebbw Junction. At some point in Dec it goes to Seven Tunnel Junction. On 22 October 1958 it goes to Reading. It goes into Caerphilly Works on 11 Dec 1959. On 18 Jan 1960 it moves back to Llandore where it remains until 14 Oct when it goes to Caerphilly running shed. 25 November sees it back to Llandore. It moves to Whitland on 13 Jun 1961. On 27 Feb 1962 it moved to Seven Tunnel Junction followed by a move to Carmathen on 22 May. Finally into store at Wolverhampton 10 Nov.
Ebbw Junction suppled some of the locos that worked the Eastern Valleys and thus 6114 could have worked to Aberbeeg and Ebbw Vale and I thus have an excuse to have a 61! Best I finish the 56 and the 9F first
The best explanation I can come up with for a 61 at Whitland in 1959 is a running in turn from Caerphilly works, there just aren't any allocations. Choose from 6102, 6120, 6147, 6160.
Modified Hall 7914 Lleweni Hall at Paddington on 6th March 1963. It belonged to Reading at the time, ending up at Oxford by way of St Philips Marsh and Bristol Barrow Road. It was withdrawn from Oxford in January 1966. (SLS). It was disposed of at Cashmore's, Newport, in May 1966. (BR Database).
Brian
Roger, Larry and any others who may want to contribute - please keep those reminiscences coming!
Both Daves, Ian and David. Thanks for your observations. More of those too, please.
9F 92144 and an unidentified WD 2-8-0 light at Holloway Road on 26th March 1963. The 9F was previously in post #2023 where it was photographed at Wood Green. This was based at New England from 9th March, moving to Colwick by way of Langwith Junction. It was withdrawn from Colwick in December 1965 (SLS) and was scrapped in April 1966 at T W Ward, Beighton. (BR Database).
61XX 2-6-2T 6108 at Paddington on 6th March 1963. The SLS record this at Cardiff Canton between October 1960 and September 1964 when it moved to Oxford where it was withdrawn in August 1965. The Cardiff allocation is most unlikely in March 1963 if it was seen at work in London and I suspect that the SLS info is transposed from another engine. In fact the Locoshed Book for November/December 1959 shows the allocation as Slough (the SLS says Old Oak Common) and the volume for May/June 1964 shows the allocation as Southall. I reckon the Locoshed Books are confirming that this loco was , broadly speaking, London based for the whole period. Rail UK agrees it was withdrawn from Oxford in August 1965 and then went to Bird's, Bynea, where it was scrapped by the end of November 1965. This agrees with the entries in WHTS.
The WR Allocation books show 6108 was based as follows.
1957, 1958. Slough,
4-12 Nov 59 Didcot
Dec 59 OOC
5 Jul 60 Whitland
13 Sep 60 Radyr
Oct 61 Overhaul, poss Wolv (It is very indistinct)
7 Nov 61 Didcot
19 Dec 61 to Dec 63 Southall.
No further records.
Radyr is a very strange allocation, well Whitland isn't much better!
An undated Blencowe photo of 6108 at Radyr and it has the lion & wheel logo. It has an 88B shed plate visible which Radyr became in September 1960. It was seen on a shed bash at Radyr in July 1961 with an 88B shedplate. 6108 was seen at Caerphilly works in Oct 61 and Southall in Feb 63 by which time it had acquired the later logo. I suspect that it was Southall allocated when the photo was taken.
Currently there is no evidence that any 61XX was attached to Cardiff Canton in the period from October 1960 to September 1964. In fact the shed closed on 10th September 1962 so any suggestion of that allocation is is spurious. The sightings go as follows:
6 April 1958. Slough. 81B shed plate.
4 October 1959. Slough. 81B shed plate.
There's no record of it being seen at Didcot in November 1959 but it appears that the allocation only lasted ten days. I can't find any record of it at Old Oak in December 1959 either, possibly again because the allocation period was so short.
23 July 1961. Radyr. 88B shed plate. (as recorded by Dave).
I can't locate any first hand sitings at Southall in February 1962
21 October 1962. Southall. A query against the 81C shed plate maybe because the loco wasn't carrying one.
17 March 1963. Southall. Still no confirmation of a shed plate.
12 January 1964. Southall. 81C confirmed.
27 September 1964. Oxford. 81F shed plate.
28 March 1965. Oxford. 81F shed plate.
Oxford closed 3 January 1966 and 6108 was not among the engines withdrawn and stored there on 9 January. The record of it being scrapped in November 1965 therefore fits quite nicely.
There's a reference to a 61XX being on the allocation of Whitland on 28 June 1958 although the number is not confirmed.
However 6114 was noted there and carrying an 87H plate on 22 October 1961. It was also noted as allocated around this period to Severn Tunnel Junction and Landore so 6114 is likely to be the 61XX allocated to Whitland in 1958.
6114: 1957 starts with it allocated to Ebbw Junction. 24 July it goes into Caerphilly Works and 20 Sep sees it back at Ebbw Junction. At some point in Dec it goes to Seven Tunnel Junction. On 22 October 1958 it goes to Reading. It goes into Caerphilly Works on 11 Dec 1959. On 18 Jan 1960 it moves back to Llandore where it remains until 14 Oct when it goes to Caerphilly running shed. 25 November sees it back to Llandore. It moves to Whitland on 13 Jun 1961. On 27 Feb 1962 it moved to Seven Tunnel Junction followed by a move to Carmathen on 22 May. Finally into store at Wolverhampton 10 Nov.
Ebbw Junction suppled some of the locos that worked the Eastern Valleys and thus 6114 could have worked to Aberbeeg and Ebbw Vale and I thus have an excuse to have a 61! Best I finish the 56 and the 9F first
The best explanation I can come up with for a 61 at Whitland in 1959 is a running in turn from Caerphilly works, there just aren't any allocations. Choose from 6102, 6120, 6147, 6160.
Modified Hall 7914 Lleweni Hall at Paddington on 6th March 1963. It belonged to Reading at the time, ending up at Oxford by way of St Philips Marsh and Bristol Barrow Road. It was withdrawn from Oxford in January 1966. (SLS). It was disposed of at Cashmore's, Newport, in May 1966. (BR Database).
Brian
Last edited:
Roger Pound
Western Thunderer
Thanks Dave, for a very interesting picture. From what I can gather, 42347 seems to have been a Stafford loco for it's entire British Railways 'life'. Engines from that area, especially tank engines, were not that common a sight at Leicester (Midland), or Leicester London Road as it was then called. It is standing at the head of platform two on the down main road and I wonder if it was about to take a train to Derby , from where a return to Stafford would be a common working. Pure speculation on my part, but I think definitely feasible.
It certainly seems to have visited the coaling plant on shed whilst at Leicester, as commented above!
Roger.
It certainly seems to have visited the coaling plant on shed whilst at Leicester, as commented above!
Roger.
SimonT
Western Thunderer
Brian,
The WR Allocation books show 6108 was based as follows.
1957, 1958. Slough,
4-12 Nov 59 Didcot
Dec 59 OOC
5 Jul 60 Whitland
13 Sep 60 Radyr
Oct 61 Overhaul, poss Wolv (It is very indistinct)
7 Nov 61 Didcot
19 Dec 61 to Dec 63 Southall.
No further records.
Radyr is a very strange allocation, well Whitland isn't much better!
Simon
The WR Allocation books show 6108 was based as follows.
1957, 1958. Slough,
4-12 Nov 59 Didcot
Dec 59 OOC
5 Jul 60 Whitland
13 Sep 60 Radyr
Oct 61 Overhaul, poss Wolv (It is very indistinct)
7 Nov 61 Didcot
19 Dec 61 to Dec 63 Southall.
No further records.
Radyr is a very strange allocation, well Whitland isn't much better!
Simon
daifly
Western Thunderer
I have an undated Blencowe photo of 6108 at Radyr and it has the lion & wheel logo. It has an 88B shed plate visible which Radyr became in September 1960. It was seen on a shed bash at Radyr in July 1961 with an 88B shedplate. 6108 was seen at Caerphilly works in Oct 61 and Southall in Feb 63 by which time it had acquired the later logo. I suspect that it was Southall allocated when the photo above was taken.
Dave
Dave
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Thank you for your comment, Roger, which maybe explains the loco being at Leicester Midland.
As for 6108 I thank Simon and Dave for their investigations. I've delved a bit deeper to try to get a feel for where the loco went according to contemporaneous sightings. I can find no evidence that any 61XX was attached to Cardiff Canton in the period from October 1960 to September 1964. In fact the shed closed on 10th September 1962 so any suggestion of that allocation is is spurious. The sightings I've found go as follows:
6 April 1958. Slough. 81B shed plate.
4 October 1959. Slough. 81B shed plate.
There's no record of it being seen at Didcot in November 1959 but it appears that the allocation only lasted ten days. I can't find any record of it at Old Oak in December 1959 either, possibly again because the allocation period was so short.
23 July 1961. Radyr. 88B shed plate. (as recorded by Dave).
I can't locate any first hand sitings at Southall in February 1962
21 October 1962. Southall. A query against the 81C shed plate maybe because the loco wasn't carrying one.
17 March 1963. Southall. Still no confirmation of a shed plate.
12 January 1964. Southall. 81C confirmed.
27 September 1964. Oxford. 81F shed plate.
28 March 1965. Oxford. 81F shed plate.
Oxford closed 3 January 1966 and 6108 was not among the engines withdrawn and stored there on 9 January. The record of it being scrapped in November 1965 therefore fits quite nicely.
There's a reference to a 61XX being on the allocation of Whitland on 28 June 1958 although the number is not confirmed.
However 6114 was noted there and carrying an 87H plate on 22 October 1961. It was also noted as allocated around this period to Severn Tunnel Junction and Landore so 6114 is likely to be the 61XX allocated to Whitland in 1958.
All things considered I reckon Dave has it right and at the time of the photo 6108 was allocated to Southall - the sightings around this date confirm.
Now back to preparing a few more photos....
Brian
As for 6108 I thank Simon and Dave for their investigations. I've delved a bit deeper to try to get a feel for where the loco went according to contemporaneous sightings. I can find no evidence that any 61XX was attached to Cardiff Canton in the period from October 1960 to September 1964. In fact the shed closed on 10th September 1962 so any suggestion of that allocation is is spurious. The sightings I've found go as follows:
6 April 1958. Slough. 81B shed plate.
4 October 1959. Slough. 81B shed plate.
There's no record of it being seen at Didcot in November 1959 but it appears that the allocation only lasted ten days. I can't find any record of it at Old Oak in December 1959 either, possibly again because the allocation period was so short.
23 July 1961. Radyr. 88B shed plate. (as recorded by Dave).
I can't locate any first hand sitings at Southall in February 1962
21 October 1962. Southall. A query against the 81C shed plate maybe because the loco wasn't carrying one.
17 March 1963. Southall. Still no confirmation of a shed plate.
12 January 1964. Southall. 81C confirmed.
27 September 1964. Oxford. 81F shed plate.
28 March 1965. Oxford. 81F shed plate.
Oxford closed 3 January 1966 and 6108 was not among the engines withdrawn and stored there on 9 January. The record of it being scrapped in November 1965 therefore fits quite nicely.
There's a reference to a 61XX being on the allocation of Whitland on 28 June 1958 although the number is not confirmed.
However 6114 was noted there and carrying an 87H plate on 22 October 1961. It was also noted as allocated around this period to Severn Tunnel Junction and Landore so 6114 is likely to be the 61XX allocated to Whitland in 1958.
All things considered I reckon Dave has it right and at the time of the photo 6108 was allocated to Southall - the sightings around this date confirm.
Now back to preparing a few more photos....
Brian
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Edit: Details totally updated. Grange Class 6854 Roundhill Grange at Paddington on 6th March 1963. It was an Oxley engine at the time. Sheds from new in 12/37 Oxley, 7/40 Banbury, 10/52 Oxley, 4/55 Oxford, 1/60 Laira, 10/60 Canton, 12/60 Penzance, 4/61 Truro, 10/61 Oxley, 6/65 Tyseley, 9/65 Wdn. It was scrapped at Bird's, Long Marston, by the end of February 1966.
Roundhill Grange itself is an attractive Georgian house in Charlton Musgrove near Wincanton.
Castle 7023 Penrice Castle and Modified Hall 6960 Raveningham Hall at Paddington on 6th March 1963. 7023 was a Worcester engine at the time, going to Oxley in July 1964 where it was withdrawn in February 1965. (SLS). It went to Cashmore's, Newport, where it was scrapped in May 1965. (BR Database). 6960 was the luckier of the two, at Reading at the time, then moving to Oxford in August 1963 before withdrawal and preservation in June 1964.
Edit: 6960 might have been withdrawn in June 1964, however the loco was sent to Woodham's yard. The loco was saved for preservation and left the yard in October 1972.
Here's 7023 again, same place, same date.
Finally three of A4 60021 Wild Swan at Kings Cross on the 4.20 pm Peterborough train on 6th March 1963. This loco has been in these pages too many times to mention, but in March 1963 it was allocated to Kings Cross but not for much longer as it was moved to New England in June where it was withdrawn in October. (SLS). It was scrapped in January 1964 at Doncaster Works. (BR Database).
Brian
Roundhill Grange itself is an attractive Georgian house in Charlton Musgrove near Wincanton.
Castle 7023 Penrice Castle and Modified Hall 6960 Raveningham Hall at Paddington on 6th March 1963. 7023 was a Worcester engine at the time, going to Oxley in July 1964 where it was withdrawn in February 1965. (SLS). It went to Cashmore's, Newport, where it was scrapped in May 1965. (BR Database). 6960 was the luckier of the two, at Reading at the time, then moving to Oxford in August 1963 before withdrawal and preservation in June 1964.
Edit: 6960 might have been withdrawn in June 1964, however the loco was sent to Woodham's yard. The loco was saved for preservation and left the yard in October 1972.
Here's 7023 again, same place, same date.
Finally three of A4 60021 Wild Swan at Kings Cross on the 4.20 pm Peterborough train on 6th March 1963. This loco has been in these pages too many times to mention, but in March 1963 it was allocated to Kings Cross but not for much longer as it was moved to New England in June where it was withdrawn in October. (SLS). It was scrapped in January 1964 at Doncaster Works. (BR Database).
Brian
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oldravendale
Western Thunderer
I thought that was the case, Simon. My data doesn't really conflict with yours - in fact the sightings as reported support it - except my guess that the 61XX allocated to Radyr was 6114 when it may well have been 6108.
All grist to the mill...