Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[John Duffy]

Blue Peter was one of Dundee Tay Bridge's pets, although here she is generally considered a Ferryhill engine. The A2's received local embellishments such as Blue Peter with blue nameplates, Irish Elegance with green and Bahram with brown. The two shed's allocations were generally interchangeable. My father-in-law was a Tay Bridge driver at this time, along with his friend Jim Hoskins. Jim's diaries were kept and his son Derek had them collated and put online. Here is the link - Diary of a fireman/secondman/driver based at Dundee

It is worth noting the amount of freight these engines did. Something I find deeply frustrating is the (regular) references in books by visiting photographers who, seeing the Dundee A2's on shed during the day, dismiss them as being on standby duties. In fact they had either worked over night or were about to work all night when the photographer was either tucked up in bed or scurrying back south.

As to what she was doing so far off piste, that is certainly a mystery.

 

[adrian]

Madge Wildfire was a character in the Walter Scott novel, Heart of Midlothian.

I'm always fascinated by the various themes employed with naming loco's and curious as to their origins so thanks for the background.

Much to my chagrin our housing estate used English Civil War battle names so we have Landsdown Hill, Cheriton Field, Marston Moor, Shalgrove Field, Roundway Down et al but when they got round to our cul-de-sac the best they could come up with was Hillcroft.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

E4 0-6-2T 32557 on empty stock and light engine at Waterloo on 9th May 1962. Although a Brighton engine by design it had moved to Nine Elms in November 1961 even though it carries a 73B Bricklayers Arms shed plate. It was withdrawn in December 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at Eastleigh Works by the end of October 1963. (Rail UK).

I had read some SR enginemen tended to prefer ex-LBSC locos for this sort of duty and shunting as their air brakes were more responsive and positive. It could all be anecdotal with a Central, Eastern or Western divisional bias.

Whether the difference between the rate of reduction in air pressure to apply air brakes or the increase in air pressure to apply vacuum brakes is noticeable I wouldn't know.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

As have the small quarter light windows above the door opening windows.

The Bulleid quarterlight in the door was very useful. As a standing passenger you didn't have to stoop to look out of the door window to see where you were .

 

[mickoo]

The Bulleid quarterlight in the door was very useful. As a standing passenger you didn't have to stoop to look out of the door window to see where you were .

Didn't think you were tall enough to see through it

 

[76043]

On the GE lines Westinghouse brakes were entirely necessary to maintain the tight schedules. Can be read about in various books such as Dick Hardy's.
Tony

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you Dave. The description of a 3-way turnout was mine alone so I appreciate your correction.

Martin. That's useful stuff to add about the geography of the place which I'll add accordingly.

Tony, Adam and Barry. Your comments are really helpful in adding much wanted detail to the photos. Received with thanks.

Yorkie Dave and Mick. More detail - thanks!

John. I much appreciate your details about the work done by the A2s. I only ever saw them - and then not that many - on passenger trains at Kings Cross so your reminder about the other work they did is timely.

An interesting side step there, Adrian. I have to say that I find the naming of roads in new estates somewhat fanciful. A new estate about five iles away from us is "Ravensmoor". Ravens haven't been seen around this part of Bucks for 100 years or more if ever.
I missed the LBSCR engine at Waterloo, Dave. I remember the M7s and then I went straight to the Standard 2-6-2 tanks. Thanks for the info. This sort of thing always brings life to the photos.

A point well made about the Westinghouse brakes, Tony.

Stanier 2-6-4T 42541 on an up Bletchley - Euston train viewed from South Kenton Station on 19th April 1962. It was allocated to Rugby, moving to Willesden from 5th May 1962. It returned to the Rugby allocation in June and was withdrawn in December the same year although Rail UK advises it was withdrawn from Willesden. (SLS). WHTS advises that it was noted in store at Rugby from December 1962 until May 1963 so Rugby appears to logically be its final allocation. It went to Derby Works where it was scrapped by the end of April 1963. (WHTS and Rail UK).



Rebuilt Patriot 45531 Sir Frederick Harrison on a down relief to Liverpool from South Kenton Station on 19th April 1962. It was an Edge Hill engine at the time, moving to Springs Branch, Carlisle Upperby and finally Kingmoor in October 1964 where it was withdrawn a year later. (SLS). It was scrapped at Campbells, Airdrie, by he end of January 1966. (Rail UK).



Northwick Park and the train spotting corner. This is a mainstay of GC local services at the time, Fairburn 2-6-4T 42252 reportedly on a Marylebone to Aylesbury Met/GC Line on 26th April 1962. However, it's actually heading for Marylebone although probably originated at Aylesbury. 42252 had been a Neasden engine since 1955 but in June 1962 began perambulating around the country ending up at Normanton in July 1967 where it was withdrawn in September. (SLS). It was scrapped at Draper's, Hull, by the end of April 1968. (Rail UK).

Edit: Tim was right! The train is heading north towards Aylesbury.



Stanier 2-6-4T 42478 on a Euston to Watford local at Northwick Park on 26th April 1962. Seen previously in post #1825 42478 was a Willesden engine in 1962 and moved around a lot thereafter, ending up at Bangor in February 1965 from where it was immediately withdrawn. (BR Database). Or, if you prefer, Aston in January 1965 where it was withdrawn in February. (SLS). Rail UK agrees that the final shed was Bangor, withdrawal in February and that the loco then went to Motherwell Machinery & Scrap at Wishaw and a scrap date at the end of June 1965. WHTS agrees with the withdrawal date but throws in a curved ball by stating that it was seen at Eastfield, Glasgow, in store between April and August. The location of Eastfield may well be because it was on its way to Motherwell Machinery (which WHTS also gives as the yard responsible for the loco's demolition) and not the final operating shed and I'm wondering if the observations at Eastfield between July and August are some of the corrupted info.



Brian

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Northwick Park and the train spotting corner. This is a mainstay of GC local services at the time, Fairburn 2-6-4T 42252 reportedly on a Marylebone to Aylesbury Met/GC Line on 26th April 1962. However, it's actually heading for Marylebone although probably originated at Aylesbury. 42252 had been a Neasden engine since 1955 but in June 1962 began perambulating around the country ending up at Normanton in July 1967 where it was withdrawn in September. (SLS). It was scrapped at Draper's, Hull, by the end of April 1968. (Rail UK).

Hi Brian, the original description was correct. The train is heading north towards Harrow/Aylesbury on the dedicated GC tracks from Marylebone to Harrow on the Hill. The four LT tracks are out of view on the far side. The LMR (LMS/LNW) substation on the left is on the north side of Met/GC and east side of the LNWR lines.

This was taken 7 months after the LT services were withdrawn north of Amersham on 9th September 1961 following the four-tracking from Harrow on the Hill to Moor Park and electrification to Amersham. The Aylesbury services were then operated by the new BR class 115 DMUs. This could be an interim measure while the DMUs were still being delivered. The disappearance of 42252 from Neasden in June 1962 would have coincided with the full dieselisation of the Marylebone - Aylesbury and High Wycombe/Bicester/Banbury services.

In correct GC parlance the train is travelling on the up line (like the old Midland Railway, GC trains travelled down to Marylebone while MR trains travelled down to St.Pancras and up to Derby). For years there was an original 197 milepost on the GC down line just south of Harrow on the Hill station - the distance was measured from Manchester.

annotated 1:2250/1:2500 1944-1972 OS extract from NLS

 

[LarryG]

I don't geddit. I'm late to this thread, but no one mentioned the Pacific in post 2554 ain't Blue Peter. Set back cylinders mark it out as a Thompson loco, maybe 60522.

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks Dave, that's embarrassing. I've imagined for ever that London was to the left and "the country" to the right! If I'd properly applied my thinking gear I guess I'd have worked it out.

I wonder how much else of what I remember isn't quite so?

 

[oldravendale]

I don't geddit. I'm late to this thread, but the Pacific in post 2554 sure ain't Blue Peter. Set back cylinders mark it out as a Thompson loco, maybe 60522.

You are quite correct, Larry, and apologies for this one as well. I think Tim has transposed the numbers - it's 60523, Sun Castle. We've seen this one previously and somewhat strangely it was confused previously with 60533. 60523 is a much more likely candidate than 60532 and going back to the tiff file the number is perfectly readable.

Thanks for the correction which will be applied accordingly.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Thanks Dave, that's embarrassing. I've imagined for ever that London was to the left and "the country" to the right! If I'd properly applied my thinking gear I guess I'd have worked it out.

Your imagination will be generally correct if you are standing facing west on the north side or facing east on south side of the river - London will always be to the left.

It's so easy to forget of the four trunk routes from the north the GNR into Kings Cross is the most direct followed by the MR which does a dog leg at West Hampstead before reaching St. Pancras. The LNWR and GCR practically approach London from the west north west ducking and diving and bobbing and weaving over each other before turning south at Primrose Hill and Finchley Road respectively to reach Euston and Marylebone.

We've just become so conditioned to the Beck/Hutchinson/Garbutt style diagrammatic maps of London's railways which do not reflect the actual topography.

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks again, Dave. I've travelled on both lines so often I should know better!

An unidentified Black 5 on a Marylebone to Aylesbury train on the Met/GC line at Northwick Park on 26th April 1962. The typical Northwick Park collection of train spotters and cycles in place.

Edit. The train is heading south towards Marylebone.



Fairburn 2-6-4T 42118 on a Euston to Bletchley train at Northwick Park on 26th April 1962. It had been a Willesden engine since 1957 and left for Carnforth in July 1965 where it was withdrawn in September. (SLS). It was scrapped at T W Ward, Killamarsh, at the very end of the year. (Rail UK).



Britannia 70046 Anzac on a down fitted freight at Northwick Park on 26th April 1962. It was a Willesden engine at the time but coming to the end of it's tenure there as it moved to Aston at the end of the month. Thereafter it wandered around the West Coast sheds, finally being at Carlisle Kingmoor where it was withdrawn in July 1967. (SLS). It went to Campbells at Airdrie where it was scrapped during November. (Rail UK).



Black 5 45288 on an up Northampton train at South Kenton Station on 19th April 1962. It was a Willesden engine, moving around a lot before ending up at Heaton Mersey in June 1966 where it was withdrawn in December 1967. (SLS). It was scrapped at Drapers, Hull, at the end of April 1968/ (Rail UK).



Brian

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

An unidentified Black 5 on a Marylebone to Aylesbury train on the Met/GC line at Northwick Park on 26th April 1962. The typical Northwick Park collection of train spotters and cycles in place.

Apologies Brian - the train is heading towards Marylebone . With a Black V at the head of corridor stock the train would more than likely be from Leicester Central, Nottingham Victoria or Sheffield Victoria. If we knew the time of day - which could be anywhere around 2 to 4pm looking at the shadows - this would have been the 12.25pm ex-Nottingham Victoria service via Aylesbury.

It appears the next train, the 1.25pm from Nottingham Victoria terminated at Aylesbury - P and D in the times indicates change at Aylesbury Town - and then possibly ran to Neasden or Marylebone empty. This is an extract of the 1962 weekday timetable.

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks again, Dave, for the correction. The more I think about my memories of Northwick Park the more I realise that I knew perfectly well which way London lies. I used to see a V2 on the South Yorkshireman to Marylebone and then an hour or two later the same loco would come past again with the return train. That was, of course, before the LMR started to run down the services as one of the excuses for shutting the inter city part of the line. After all, why detrain everyone at Aylesbury and then run the train as empty stock to Marylebone? Even if it was going empty stock to Neasden carriage sidings why not run it to Marylebone and then empty stock to Neasden?

There were some real shenanigans involved in almost every closure I've ever heard of, frequently with the excuse that routes were duplicated. When we see whole stretches of main line closed for upgrading work and trains substituted by buses perhaps duplication was not such a bad idea.

Rant over!

Brian

 

[Dave Holt]

Ah, but you're obviously not an accountant, Brian.
Dave.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

On this slight GC diversion part of whats left of HS2 from nowhere to nowhere (Old Oak to Curzon St as neither are in their respective city centres!) follows part of if not on the old GC route from Quainton Road Junction (Golding Spring Central) to just north of Finmere.

 

[oldravendale]

An accountant I am not, Dave! In fairness I have to say that I've worked with a few who have been great people for my business. When they understand what we're trying to do they can be magic. When they don't - well, that way lies disaster.

Yorkie Dave. We're running a bit close to politics here but I have to say I agree. My issue with HS2 (which, having started should finish) is the extraordinary amount of valuable land they've taken. There are also some significant concerns about the hydrology "expectations". We may actually lose the River Misbourne down a great big 'ole in the ground and there are some concerns now about the drinking water aquifer.

However, moving on...

to another part of the country.

Ivatt Class 2 2-6-2T 41300 at Brighton Shed on 23rd April 1962. This is a nominally LMS loco which never spent any time on the LMS. Atthe time of the photo it was allocated to Brighton, moving to Salisbury in June 1964 where it was withdrawn in October. (SLS). It went to R S Hayes/Bird's, Bridgend where it was scrapped by the end of February 1965.



My favourite class of loco bar none. Brighton K Class 2-6-0 32344 at Brighton Shed on 23rd April 1962. It was allocated to Brighton at the time and withdrawn from there in November 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at Eastleigh Works at the end of January 1963. (Rail UK).



Standard 2-6-4T 80043 on the 2.14pm Lewes to Brighton at Brighton on 23rd April 1962. 80043 was a Tonbridge engine at the time, then to Exmouth Junction in June and Templecombe (S & D) in September 1964 where it was withdrawn in March 1966. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore's, Newport in July. (BR Database).



Standard Class 2-6-4T 80152 on the 2.20pm Brighton to London Victoria at Brighton (or not?) on 23rd April 1962. It was a Brighton engine, moving to Redhill at the end of December 1963, then Salisbury in June 1965 and Eastleigh in October 1966 before withdrawal at the end of Southern steam in July 1967. (SLS). It then went to Bird's at Risca where it was scrapped in November.



Brian

 

[Barry37]

Thanks again, Dave. I've travelled on both lines so often I should know better!

An unidentified Black 5 on a Marylebone to Aylesbury train on the Met/GC line at Northwick Park on 26th April 1962. The typical Northwick Park collection of train spotters and cycles in place.

Edit. The train is heading south towards Marylebone.

View attachment 198696

Fairburn 2-6-4T 42118 on a Euston to Bletchley train at Northwick Park on 26th April 1962. It had been a Willesden engine since 1957 and left for Carnforth in July 1965 where it was withdrawn in September. (SLS). It was scrapped at T W Ward, Killamarsh, at the very end of the year. (Rail UK).

View attachment 198697

Britannia 70046 Anzac on a down fitted freight at Northwick Park on 26th April 1962. It was a Willesden engine at the time but coming to the end of it's tenure there as it moved to Aston at the end of the month. Thereafter it wandered around the West Coast sheds, finally being at Carlisle Kingmoor where it was withdrawn in July 1967. (SLS). It went to Campbells at Airdrie where it was scrapped during November. (Rail UK).

View attachment 198698

Black 5 45288 on an up Northampton train at South Kenton Station on 19th April 1962. It was a Willesden engine, moving around a lot before ending up at Heaton Mersey in June 1966 where it was withdrawn in December 1967. (SLS). It was scrapped at Drapers, Hull, at the end of April 1968/ (Rail UK).

View attachment 198699

Brian

The containers on Conflats behind Britannia 70046 Anzac, seem to be ten of the forty light alloy BA containers built to D3/075 at the end of 1961. They differed from earlier designs by having two lifting brackets at the bottom of the sides, instead of slinging points at the edge of the roof. Despite the flat roof, they could not be stacked, which may have led to their short life (c. ten years).
Behind them, there is what looks like a Stanier LMS brake van.
Perhaps the brake van in the consist is to make it easier to split the container wagons from the rest of the train, especially as the BA containers began the "Speed the freight" (later Speedfreight) service of the LMR, and carried this branding. The official photo of the early livery also indicates on which route the freight is to be sped - London to, er, Manchester.

 

[Barry37]

An accountant I am not, Dave! In fairness I have to say that I've worked with a few who have been great people for my business. When they understand what we're trying to do they can be magic. When they don't - well, that way lies disaster.

Yorkie Dave. We're running a bit close to politics here but I have to say I agree. My issue with HS2 (which, having started should finish) is the extraordinary amount of valuable land they've taken. There are also some significant concerns about the hydrology "expectations". We may actually lose the River Misbourne down a great big 'ole in the ground and there are some concerns now about the drinking water aquifer.

However, moving on...

to another part of the country.

Ivatt Class 2 2-6-2T 41300 at Brighton Shed on 23rd April 1962. This is a nominally LMS loco which never spent any time on the LMS. Atthe time of the photo it was allocated to Brighton, moving to Salisbury in June 1964 where it was withdrawn in October. (SLS). It went to R S Hayes/Bird's, Bridgend where it was scrapped by the end of February 1965.

View attachment 198798

My favourite class of loco bar none. Brighton K Class 2-6-0 32344 at Brighton Shed on 23rd April 1962. It was allocated to Brighton at the time and withdrawn from there in November 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at Eastleigh Works at the end of January 1963. (Rail UK).

View attachment 198799

Standard 2-6-4T 80043 on the 2.14pm Lewes to Brighton at Brighton on 23rd April 1962. 80043 was a Tonbridge engine at the time, then to Exmouth Junction in June and Templecombe (S & D) in September 1964 where it was withdrawn in March 1966. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore's, Newport in July. (BR Database).

View attachment 198800

Standard Class 2-6-4T 80152 on the 2.20pm Brighton to London Victoria at Brighton (or not?) on 23rd April 1962. It was a Brighton engine, moving to Redhill at the end of December 1963, then Salisbury in June 1965 and Eastleigh in October 1966 before withdrawal at the end of Southern steam in July 1967. (SLS). It then went to Bird's at Risca where it was scrapped in November.

View attachment 198801

Brian

The Ivatt tanks worked the Brighton to Horsham trains via Shoreham.
The two photos of "Brighton" are most definitely not taken there.
80152 was working a London train via the Uckfield line and Oxted. The photo is of Barcombe Mills station - the house on the left still has the distinctive chimney stacks.
80043 could well be at the same location, as the siding matches Barcombe Mills goods yard. A steam-hauled service starting from Lewes in 1962 would have been very unlikely - only the Brighton-Uckfield line passenger trains were steam, and that was soon to finish.
(I went by train from Newhaven to school in Lewes 1962-67)