Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[simond]

Thanks also, Dave... It's a good job I never had the opportunity to fly anything! I tried a simulator of a 747 a few years ago in Canada.... and crashed it.

look at it this way, 97% of the time they’re flying the thing, they’re at 30,000 feet or higher, and there basically nothing to crash into. I do appreciate that there has to be that percentage when you’re closer to hard things but you do need to refuel…

 

[AJC]

Amidst all the steam you can see that 4698 has been through Eastleigh - you can just about make out the water-softener hatch a lot of SR-allocated panniers were fitted with, it's in the front of the dome. Some gained the full suite of extra lamp irons (with varying degrees of elegance).

The formation behind 73041 - and I think it is, quite reasonable for a Weymouth engine to turn up at Waterloo as Exmouth Junction locos certainly did on occasion - is quite nice, a 'loose' Maunsell corridor third added to a Bulleid three set and what looks like some species of LMS full brake.

Adam

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks for yours, Simon. Yes, it was the hard bit underneath the aircraft that I hit...

Adam - I much appreciate the expansion of the details for those two photos. I saw a pannier in Eastleigh - in fact Tim may have one in some upcoming photos - but was unaware of the water softener. The info about the stock behind the Standard 5 is also valuable.

Class N 2-6-0 31826 on an up Oxted line to Victoria train at Clapham Junction on 13th October 1962. According to the smokebox which apparently proclaimed B Arms as its home shed right up to scrapping.
Exmouth Junc 15/6/24, Stewarts Lane 21/4/45, New X Gate 20/4/46, Bricklayers Arms 12/7/47, Stewarts Lane 30/6/62, Wdn 25/8/63, Cut up Eastleigh Works w/e 11/1/64.



An unidentified Q1 light engine at Clapham Junction on 13th October 1962. Scrutiny of the original TIFF scan suggests this is 33016 which we last saw in Ashford Works in post #3309. 33016 had been at Feltham since October 1954, moved to Three Bridges in December 1962 and was withdrawn in August 1963. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cohen's, Kettering, during April 1964. (BR Database).



This loco featured previously in posts #3413 and #3414 (img2712). One of two Schools Class latterly fitted with a Lord Nelson tender this is 30921 Shrewsbury light engine at Clapham Junction again on 13th October 1962. This was allocated to Nine Elms from August 1961 and withdrawn in December 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cohens, Kettering in May 1964. (BR Database).



Brian

 

[2-Bil]

AJC's mention of Bulleid sets took me back to post 3,413 and the semi open brake second coupled to the diesel shunter.It bears a BR "roundel" a rarity on Bulleid stock.However 3 sets were outshopped with them 1/4/1962 for service on " THE ROYAL WESSEX"when to improve seating capacity they replaced the services Mk 1 stock.

Theres more info about this (than you probably need) on BloodandCustard.com.In addition a June '62 image of a spick and span semi open brake second sporting a roundel is on p158 of Mike Kings "An Illustrated History of Southern Coaches

The close-up of the E4 crew was a gem.Can anyone out there tell me if the short piece tube on it's cab side served any function other than being a handy home for the point of a coal pick ???
Respects
Brian W

 

[Martin Shaw]

31826 Brian, according to the smokebox which apparently proclaimed B Arms as its home shed right up to scrapping.
Exmouth Junc 15/6/24, Stewarts Lane 21/4/45, New X Gate 20/4/46, Bricklayers Arms 12/7/47, Stewarts Lane 30/6/62, Wdn 25/8/63, Cut up Eastleigh Works w/e 11/1/64.

Weymouth as a shed is slightly complex. a GWR and WR location until Feb 1958 (82F), it moved as part of the regional boundary changes to the SR and was recoded 71G until Sep 1963 when it became 70G until Jul 1967 when it closed. The WR continued to provide motive power for a few months but in Oct 58 the SR allocated five Std 5s 73017/8/20/22/29 and a further two 73041/2 in Nov 59. They first five came from the WR at Swindon, no doubt they were happy to exchange them for Weymouth's erstwhile Halls, the later two came from Eastleigh and prior to that the LM.

Whilst the engines and owning region may have changed the traffic patterns wouldn't have so the majority of passenger workings would have been to Westbury, Yeovil, perhaps Bournemouth. There would have been the odd through train to London but plenty of photos exist of light pacifics at Weymouth prior to departure to Waterloo. What is perhaps significant is that Channel Island boat trains previously worked by the WR became a feature of SR workings and the Std5's certainly appeared on these. I don't think the pic of 73041 is a boat train nor do I think it's going to Weymouth with 4 carriages and a van, possibly a Basingstoke filler although the headcode suggest Waterloo and Plymouth which doesn't seem likely either. So yes I do think Weymouth engines were less likely at Clapham than Exmouth Junc or Bournemouth engines.

As a matter of interest Weymouth never had a light pacific allocated post 58, but in Sept 64 thirteen Merchant Navies were all allocated there, obviously an accountancy exercise, a further five subsequently went there and then a few of then went back to Nine Elms, late 66 or early 67 I suspect to counter general running down of steam on the SR.

The LB&SCR decided in the 1880s to utilise the Webb& Thomson Electric Train staff as a single line safety device. This is a steel pole some 2 feet in length with five brass rings around it that are spaced to configure it to fit the instrument in the signalbox at each end of the specific section. There isn't an obvious location to store it whilst in transit on the locomotive and the fear of it being lost led the company to fit holders on the cabside as demonstrated by 32557. The brass rings prevented it from falling right through. It was a good system even though the staff itself was bulky and heavy enough if you got clouted by one, and the basic electrical principal was utilised in all subsequent electric token systems.
Regards
Martin

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

The LB&SCR decided in the 1880s to utilise the Webb& Thomson Electric Train staff as a single line safety device. This is a steel pole some 2 feet in length with five brass rings around it that are spaced to configure it to fit the instrument in the signalbox at each end of the specific section. There isn't an obvious location to store it whilst in transit on the locomotive and the fear of it being lost led the company to fit holders on the cabside as demonstrated by 32557. The brass rings prevented it from falling right through. It was a good system even though the staff itself was bulky and heavy enough if you got clouted by one, and the basic electrical principal was utilised in all subsequent electric token systems.

I have seen photographs of the cabside staff holder on ex-LBSC tank locos being used to store hammers which I have replicated on my 7mm model.

 

[daifly]

look at it this way, 97% of the time they’re flying the thing, they’re at 30,000 feet or higher, and there basically nothing to crash into. I do appreciate that there has to be that percentage when you’re closer to hard things but you do need to refuel…

Don't forget that at 30,000' you're only 5 miles from the surface of the earth and that's very hard. And at 600mph it's only a few seconds flying time away!

Dave

 

[2-Bil]

Single line staff holder it is then....thanks for the reply
cheers
Brian W

 

[Martin Shaw]

For those who might be unfamiliar with what a train staff looks like, here's an LBSCR one with an Annetts key which unlocked the ground frames at Hartfield and Withyham.

 

[GreenAyre42]

Can I ask of the PW crew of the forum, what would have been the reasoning behind splitting and putting blocks on this siding at Brighton, from posting 3366 ? David.

 

[timbowales]

Another intriguing feature is that nothing can approach the stops on the right as the common crossing or “frog” has been plain lined?
Tim T

 

[jonte]

@oldravendale ’s mishap with the simulator, brings to mind the old line: ‘How does one get to Carnegie Hall’?

Jon

 

[oldravendale]

The thing is, Dave, if god had intended us to fly she'd have given us wings....

Then, Martin, my apologies for getting the N wrong! I really should now by now not to rely absolutely on Tim's notes... Thanks too for your info regarding Weymouth shed. I remember Weymouth for two reasons. One was the tramway to the Channel Islands ferries where I saw and photographed one of the 1366 class pannier tanks on a boat train, (and interestingly for me from the same spot where we pick up the boat at Weymouth when I go fishing) and also where I saw the last Merchant Navy to complete my set- Ellerman Lines. Finally thanks for yours about the train staff. All interesting stuff.

And by way of the train staff to Brian who stimulated the reply from Martin and Dave's photo of a lovely 7mm E4. But mainly thank you for the info about that coaching stock. This detail really fills information which was never recorded.

Finally David and your observation about the Pullman Works photo. At this distance in time who knows the answer? And also to Tim for the further observation.

E4 0-6-2T 32557 on empty stock at Waterloo on 15th November 1962. We've seen this loco a lot recently, for example in posts #2544 and #3401. Although a Brighton engine by design it had moved to Nine Elms in November 1961. It was withdrawn in December 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at Eastleigh Works by the end of October 1963. (Rail UK).

It is interesting to note that, despite the "official" allocation shown above the loco is clearly carrying a 73B Bricklayers Arms shed plate which, according to the SLS it left in November 1961 to go to Nine Elms.



Is this photo unique? Three locos from three different companies alongside one another and working on the Southern. As remarked previously there were a few GWR 57XX pannier tanks allocated to the SR intended as replacements for the M7s. This is 4698 (GWR) with E4 32557 (LBSCR) and M7 30034 (LSWR) at Waterloo on 15th November 1962. 4698 was loaned to Nine Elms initially in March 1959 but must have been regarded as satisfactory as it was allocated there at the end of June the same year. In July 1963 it moved to Treherbert, then Gloucester Horton Road at the end of August the same year, Bristol Barrow Road in May 1964 and finally back to Gloucester Horton Road in October where it was withdrawn in November 1965. (SLS). WHTS record it as at Ward’s, Briton Ferry, in January 1966 and BR Database that scrapping occurred in February 1966.

32557 has featured a lot recently but for reference see posts #2544 and #3401. It had moved to Nine Elms in November 1961 and was withdrawn in December 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at Eastleigh Works by the end of October 1963. (Rail UK).

30034 was a Nine Elms engine from July 1962, moving to Salisbury notionally in September 1962 but clearly still in London in November. It was withdrawn from Salisbury in February 1963 so I wonder if it ever actually got there. (SLS). It was cut up at Eastleigh Works week ending 25th May 1963. (RO).

There's a Pullman Car edging in to the right hand side of this shot so I wonder if the pannier tank is bringing in the empty stock for the Bournemouth Belle.



Rebuilt Merchant Navy pacific 35013 Blue Funnel light engine at Waterloo on 15th November 1962. At the time this was an Exmouth Junction engine and had been since March 1954. It went to Bournemouth in September 1964, Weymouth Radipole in October 1966 and finally Nine Elms in April 1967 where it lasted almost to the end of Southern steam being withdrawn on 2nd July 1967. WHTS reported it at Buttigeig’s, Newport at the end of March 1968 where it was scrapped in April 1968 according to BR Database.



Brian

 

[Barry37]

Can I ask of the PW crew of the forum, what would have been the reasoning behind splitting and putting blocks on this siding at Brighton, from posting 3366 ? David.

This line was formerly "one", according to an old OS map. It continued a short distance to the left, then split into a short siding and a trailing connection to a line that ran past both sets of sidings (perhaps to allow a loco to "escape" from the northern end's headshunt). The purpose of the left hand line, at the time I took the photos, seems to have been a headshunt for the sidings on the "Brighton" side of Dyke Road Drive bridge. These non-electric sidings were the temporary home of the withdrawn Brighton Belle coaches, until other homes were found for them.
Wagons with the green triangles are revenue stock "loaned" to the P. Way Dept, generally used for spent ballast. Considerable amounts of this travelled in such wagons to be tipped at Newhaven Harbour, east of the Marine station, near/in the "Tide Mills" ponds.
This is another photo that shows the lines without wagons, and the Brighton Belle passing its (partial) birthplace. The pair of buffer stops is conveniently marked with a white spot (slide defect).

 

[daifly]

Amidst all the steam you can see that 4698 has been through Eastleigh - you can just about make out the water-softener hatch a lot of SR-allocated panniers were fitted with, it's in the front of the dome. Some gained the full suite of extra lamp irons (with varying degrees of elegance).

Adam

You are obviously seeing something that I'm not. I can see tank vents, tank fillers and topfeed cover but that's all. 4698 was repainted and outshopped from Eastleigh in September 1962 and, as can be seen in the photo, has had the BR AWS battery box fitted behind the rear step.

Another characteristic (but not diagnostic) feature of Eastleigh pannier repaints was the placing of the logo. Eastleigh invariably placed it much further aft than Swindon.

Dave

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Is this photo unique? Three locos from three different companies alongside one another and working on the Southern. As remarked previously there were a few GWR 57XX pannier tanks allocated to the SR intended as replacements for the M7s. This is 4698 (GWR) with E4 32557 (LBSCR) and M7 30034 (LSWR) at Waterloo on 15th November 1962. 4698 was loaned to Nine Elms initially in March 1959 but must have been regarded as satisfactory as it was allocated there at the end of June the same year. In July 1963 it moved to Treherbert, then Gloucester Horton Road at the end of August the same year, Bristol Barrow Road in May 1964 and finally back to Gloucester Horton Road in October where it was withdrawn in November 1965. (SLS). WHTS record it as at Ward’s, Briton Ferry, in January 1966 and BR Database that scrapping occurred in February 1966.

32557 has featured a lot recently but for reference see posts #2544 and #3401. It had moved to Nine Elms in November 1961 and was withdrawn in December 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at Eastleigh Works by the end of October 1963. (Rail UK).

30034 was a Nine Elms engine from July 1962, moving to Salisbury notionally in September 1962 but clearly still in London in November. It was withdrawn from Salisbury in February 1963 so I wonder if it ever actually got there. (SLS). It was cut up at Eastleigh Works week ending 25th May 1963. (RO).

There's a Pullman Car edging in to the right hand side of this shot so I wonder if the pannier tank is bringing in the empty stock for the Bournemouth Belle.

All overseen by a clean 4-Cor (left) saying "look at me I don't need you lot banging and crashing me around to get into the platform"

E4 0-6-2T 32557 on empty stock at Waterloo on 15th November 1962. We've seen this loco a lot recently, for example in posts #2544 and #3401. Although a Brighton engine by design it had moved to Nine Elms in November 1961. It was withdrawn in December 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at Eastleigh Works by the end of October 1963. (Rail UK).

The coach behind 32557 is a Bulleid Kitchen/Resturant/Buffet car. In the Windsor Lines platforms in the background are 4-SUB (nearest) and 4-EPB (farthest) electric units. Easily identified by the drivers and guards door positions and the headcode box (4-SUB had separate drivers and guards doors and an external stencil headode; 4-EPB had a drivers window and guards doors - driver accessed the cab via these - and an internal roller blind headcode).

 

[AJC]

Adam

You are obviously seeing something that I'm not. I can see tank vents, tank fillers and topfeed cover but that's all. 4698 was repainted and outshopped from Eastleigh in September 1962 and, as can be seen in the photo, has had the BR AWS battery box fitted behind the rear step.

Another characteristic (but not diagnostic) feature of Eastleigh pannier repaints was the placing of the logo. Eastleigh invariably placed it much further aft than Swindon.

Dave

Dave,

Try this shot:

https://flic.kr/p/2psmXUS

The hatch - fairly clearly visible above the right hand side of the totem - is in the standard place for these things. You can just about make out the wash pattern of the weathering around it in Tim's picture (which might well show it open). Not all the locos that went through Eastleigh got the SR pattern battery box - 8745 of Yeovil doesn't seem to have done, though it certainly had the softener hatch, and I'm gathering photos to make a model of that. In contrast, 4681 in Tim's shot showing the M7, E4 and the pannier shows that, at that date anyway, the latter engine had no such fitting, though it does have an SR pattern battery box.

Adam

 

[Martin Shaw]

I rather naievely assumed that by virtue of the published date 30034 had gone elsewhere by Oct 62, obviously wrongly. Hmm.
#2775 rather helpfully shows the staff holder on the E4 with a coal pick judiciously stored.
Martin

 

[daifly]

it's in the front of the dome.

I see what you're talking about now. "In the front of the dome" represents a different location to me! The hatch is to the RHS of the dome!

Dave

 

[2-Bil]

Re 32557 at Waterloo (post 3,433).I'm assuming the spaced letters R/SVU/WXY hanging from the girders are GPO codings for mail sorting??? I don't recall seeing any other images capturing this sizeable signage at Waterloo.
Brian W