Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[oldravendale]

Thanks, Barry, for more info and another picture of the Brighton Pullman sheds.

Dave and Adam - thanks for sorting out the confusion regarding the water softener hatch.

Yorkshire Dave. Once more you come to my rescue with details of the electric stock for which many thanks.

As you'll see quite soon, Martin, the dates of at least some of these photos are suspect. They'll need some work by me to see if I can sort some of the info out and we'll get to that in a post coming up very soon. I note the E4 and coal pick too, clearly prototypical for Yorkshire Dave's model seen earlier.

Brian - I wondered about those hanging letters too. You may well be correct about them being to do with mail sorting. My first thought was that they'd be for parcels and indicating which station they'd be going to but there aren't too many stations with a name starting with "X" so I'll bet your belief is correct.

Class N 2-6-0 31408 backing out of Waterloo on a parcels train on 15th November 1962. It was a Salisbury engine at the time, having moved there in November 1961, thence to Guildford in September 1963 where it was withdrawn in June 1966. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Newport, in September the same year (BR Database).



You might like to look back at post #3405 which corresponds with this photo to a large degree. Tim says this is original Battle of Britain 34068 Kenley, M7 30055 and Rebuilt Merchant Navy 35013 Blue Funnel at Waterloo on 15th November 1962. There is no doubt that the Battle of Britain is 34068 but I’m doubtful about the identification of the other two – the Merchant Navy was seen in post #3433 above but facing in the opposite direction, backing out of the platform. Now it’s not impossible that the loco had been to Nine Elms, been serviced turned and returned but is that likely? As for the M7, as shown below, there is no evidence of 30055 ever being allocated to a London shed.

I suspect the Pullman train behind the MN is probably the Bournemouth Belle with Car No 31 prominent being shunted to the carriage sidings by the MN which has arrived on an earlier train as empty stock.

34068 is a probable in post #3284. It was allocated to Stewarts Lane from December 1949 and moved to Salisbury in May 1961 where it was withdrawn in November 1963. (SLS). The Railway Observer reported that it arrived at Eastleigh Works in February 1964 and was cut up there week ending 21st March 1964.

My doubts about 30055 stem from the SLS record which shows it allocated to Three Bridges from November 1959, then Guildford in July 1962 and Tunbridge Wells West in January 1963 where it was withdrawn on 15th September 1963 although a day later being allocated to Three Bridges again – most unlikely I’d have thought although it could have gone there for storage. Nevertheless, WHTS shows it in store at Tunbridge Wells West in October 1963 so the SLS suggestion of a transfer to Three Bridges after withdrawal looks spurious. The Railway Observer advises that the loco was seen at Eastleigh and cut up there week ending 15th February 1964.

Specially for Dave some electric stock to the left of the frame.



Another of the 57XX pannier tanks sent to the Southern is 9770 seen here on empty Pullman stock at Clapham Junction on 15th November 1962. This went to Nine Elms in March 1959 and to Bath Green Park in July 1963 where it was withdrawn at the end of November the same year. (SLS). The Railway Observer report it at Bird’s, Morriston and WHTS that it was scrapped there , BR Database giving us a date of March 1964.



Brian

 

[Barry37]

Thanks, Barry, for more info and another picture of the Brighton Pullman sheds.

Dave and Adam - thanks for sorting out the confusion regarding the water softener hatch.

Yorkshire Dave. Once more you come to my rescue with details of the electric stock for which many thanks.

As you'll see quite soon, Martin, the dates of at least some of these photos are suspect. They'll need some work by me to see if I can sort some of the info out and we'll get to that in a post coming up very soon. I note the E4 and coal pick too, clearly prototypical for Yorkshire Dave's model seen earlier.

Brian - I wondered about those hanging letters too. You may well be correct about them being to do with mail sorting. My first thought was that they'd be for parcels and indicating which station they'd be going to but there aren't too many stations with a name starting with "X" so I'll bet your belief is correct.

Class N 2-6-0 31408 backing out of Waterloo on a parcels train on 15th November 1962. It was a Salisbury engine at the time, having moved there in November 1961, thence to Guildford in September 1963 where it was withdrawn in June 1966. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Newport, in September the same year (BR Database).

View attachment 213584

You might like to look back at post #3405 which corresponds with this photo to a large degree. Tim says this is original Battle of Britain 34068 Kenley, M7 30055 and Rebuilt Merchant Navy 35013 Blue Funnel at Waterloo on 15th November 1962. There is no doubt that the Battle of Britain is 34068 but I’m doubtful about the identification of the other two – the Merchant Navy was seen in post #3433 above but facing in the opposite direction, backing out of the platform. Now it’s not impossible that the loco had been to Nine Elms, been serviced turned and returned but is that likely? As for the M7, as shown below, there is no evidence of 30055 ever being allocated to a London shed.

I suspect the Pullman train behind the MN is probably the Bournemouth Belle with Car No 31 prominent being shunted to the carriage sidings by the MN which has arrived on an earlier train as empty stock.

34068 is a probable in post #3284. It was allocated to Stewarts Lane from December 1949 and moved to Salisbury in May 1961 where it was withdrawn in November 1963. (SLS). The Railway Observer reported that it arrived at Eastleigh Works in February 1964 and was cut up there week ending 21st March 1964.

My doubts about 30055 stem from the SLS record which shows it allocated to Three Bridges from November 1959, then Guildford in July 1962 and Tunbridge Wells West in January 1963 where it was withdrawn on 15th September 1963 although a day later being allocated to Three Bridges again – most unlikely I’d have thought although it could have gone there for storage. Nevertheless, WHTS shows it in store at Tunbridge Wells West in October 1963 so the SLS suggestion of a transfer to Three Bridges after withdrawal looks spurious. The Railway Observer advises that the loco was seen at Eastleigh and cut up there week ending 15th February 1964.

Specially for Dave some electric stock to the left of the frame.

View attachment 213585

Another of the 57XX pannier tanks sent to the Southern is 9770 seen here on empty Pullman stock at Clapham Junction on 15th November 1962. This went to Nine Elms in March 1959 and to Bath Green Park in July 1963 where it was withdrawn at the end of November the same year. (SLS). The Railway Observer report it at Bird’s, Morriston and WHTS that it was scrapped there , BR Database giving us a date of March 1964.

View attachment 213586

Brian

Shed Bash shows 30055 at Eastleigh yard in February 1962, and says it was allocated to Brighton 75A.
Relating to shed codes, when the Prudential Assurance Co. had regional offices, they had code numbers. And perhaps it's just coincidence, but the Brighton regional office code was M75.

 

[Martin Shaw]

Brian
I rather think you have confused yourself regarding the Merchant Navy, it's facing the buffer stops in both pics and has obviously been used for a spot of shunting.

It should perhaps be noted that 30055 was P&P fitted of which there is no sign of on the rear bufferbeam of the M7 in the pic. It could well be 30033 again. 55 was never allocated to Nine Elms and I can perhaps explain the allocation oddity. It went from Guildford to Tunbridge Wells West in Jan 63 as a result of the Guildford - Horsham services being modernised with Ivatt Class 2 locomotives, and as a P&P fitted loco it would be useful on the Three Bridges - TWW services via East Grinstead HL. It went from TWW to Three Bridges shed in Sept 63 because the former was closed that month although storage at TWW shed was equally likely as it was probably withdrawn on the same date as the shed closure. There is no doubt that both 3 Bridges and TWW loco crews preferred a H class to an M7 for PP work. The steaming of the M7 boilers being somewhat variable compared to Ashfords finest.

I think shed bash is wrong, the only allocation of 30055 to Brighton I can find record of is 4/56 - 5/59.

Martin

 

[Barry37]

Brian
I rather think you have confused yourself regarding the Merchant Navy, it's facing the buffer stops in both pics and has obviously been used for a spot of shunting.

It should perhaps be noted that 30055 was P&P fitted of which there is no sign of on the rear bufferbeam of the M7 in the pic. It could well be 30033 again. 55 was never allocated to Nine Elms and I can perhaps explain the allocation oddity. It went from Guildford to Tunbridge Wells West in Jan 63 as a result of the Guildford - Horsham services dieselisation and as a P&P fitted loco it would be useful on the Three Bridges - TWW services via East Grinstead HL. It went from TWW to Three Bridges shed in Sept 63 because the former was closed that month although storage at TWW shed was equally likely as it was probably withdrawn on the same date as the shed closure. There is no doubt that both 3 Bridges and TWW loco crews preferred a H class to an M7 for PP work. The steaming of the M7 boilers being somewhat variable compared to Ashfords finest.

I think shed bash is wrong, the only allocation of 30055 to Brighton I can find record of is 4/56 - 5/59.

Martin

Shed bash could be wrong, as no M7s are shown as being present at Brighton in the 1960-64 period.
The last two years of the shed's operation were when I did occasional loco spotting at Brighton station, and they're not a type I recall seeing (or in the few photos I took). By then, it was mostly Ivatt Class 2s and BR 2-6-4Ts, plus WC/BB for the Plymouth turn. 2-6-0s for the Uckfield line were being replaced by BRCW Class 3s (33).

 

[76043]

I thought shed bash was just an indication of what was on shed on a particular date, not necessarily allocated.
Tony

 

[Martin Shaw]

Not quite Tony, almost always the allocation of a particular loco is given with of course no guarantee that it's correct but yes its more so a record of what's there on the day, often as not a Sunday.
Martin

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Specially for Dave some electric stock to the left of the frame.

This is a 4-COR unit.

Class N 2-6-0 31408 backing out of Waterloo on a parcels train on 15th November 1962. It was a Salisbury engine at the time, having moved there in November 1961, thence to Guildford in September 1963 where it was withdrawn in June 1966. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Newport, in September the same year (BR Database).

The electric unit on the left will be a SR built 4-SUB - indentified by it's high gutter line.

 

[oldravendale]

Barry, Martin and Tony. I think we can rule out 30055 as a candidate. I'll take a punt on it being 30034 which we know from photographic evidence was at Waterloo at the right time - and Shed Bash is indeed a record of what was on shed at the time of the visit although the loco allocations recorded at the same time can be most useful.

Martin - re the Merchant Navy. Put my notes down to the ramblings of an unsound mind. Of course it is the same way round in both photos!

Dave - as ever you've come to my rescue with the detail of the EMUs. Many thanks.

This series has really put the cat among the pigeons regarding the date of all those Southern photos. Those below and in posts #3362 and #3368 must have been taken on 2nd December 1962 which puts all the others, I suggest, at the same date. My reasoning is this: As we’ve previously established Six Bells Junction advises there were two tours behind the 0298 well tanks, on 2nd and 16th December. However, there were some differences which enable us to establish which tour this is. The tour on 2nd December used set 278 and carried reporting number SPL 12. The reporting number for the tour on 16th December is not recorded, but the set number is 352. Tim’s photos in #3362 and #3368 show the well tanks carrying reporting numbers SPL11 and SPL12. Img2780 just coming up shows the set number to be 278 and the reporting numbers carried by the locos, although a bit blured, appear to be SPL11. There is also one coming up of the H16 2-6-4T 30517 carrying number SPL 4. Photos attached to the Six Bells Junction files confirm the set numbers and SPL12 on the train hauled by the well tanks. A photo of the train hauled by the H16 has reporting number SPL4. (Confusingly there’s also a photo on Six Bells Junction of the H16 light engine at Wimbledon carrying SPL36 but this should, I’m sure, be associated with the 16th December train as Tim’s shows it carrying SPL4.)

The photos of the train on 16th December shows the well tanks carrying reporting number SPL32 and set 352. The H16 on the train carries reporting number SPL36 ergo Tim’s photos must have been taken on 2nd December.

This is film 78. The longer series is neg strip 79. I’m talking myself in to reassembling each of the films in to frame order which may help to confirm some of the dates of the pictures other than the RCTS Special – certainly those between the shots of the 0298 tanks. Regrettably there’s no certainty that film 78 preceded film 79 in order – some of Tim’s filing could be a touch eccentric.







Here’s the third loco participant in the 0298 excursion of 2nd December 1962. It’s H16 4-6-2T 30517 carrying the SPL4 disc. It was photographed in Wimbledon Down Yard. By now it was a Feltham engine and had been since May 1961. It was withdrawn at the end of 1962 (SLS), so only a few weeks after this photo was taken and was scrapped at Eastleigh Works in June 1963. (BR Database)



Brian

 

[oldravendale]

After the next couple of pictures we'll be leaving the Southern for a bit although there will be more to come somewhat later.

Rebuilt Merchant Navy 35017 Belgian Marine on a down express at Vauxhall, photographed from the train on 15th November 1962. A shot I particularly like, it’s so atmospheric. Tim had a skill at taking photographs from train windows - a skill I never mastered. 35017 had been at Nine Elms since at least 1948, (BR Database) moving to Weymouth Radipole in September 1964 where it was withdrawn in July 1966. (SLS). It was reported by LCGB passing through Severn Tunnel Junction dead engine towards the end of September 1966 and according to WHTS went to Buttigeigs, Newport although verification is required. BR Database report the loco as scrapped by the end of September 1966.



An unidentified Q1 0-6-0 probably shunting a train of milk tanks in Wimbledon Down Yard although Tim refers to this as a freight from Staines. It’s dated as 15th November 1962 but I believe this is another of the photos taken on 2nd December 1962. Note the EMU on the right hand side of the frame.



This was a rarity in the London area – it’s B16 61438 leaving Marylebone and described as on the East Midlands Railtour of 30th September 1962. However, reference to Six Bells Junction confirms this to be The Midland Ltd on 14th October 1962. A little later there will be a few more shots of this train and even later some even better pictures but they are among negatives Tim wanted printed and are stored separately. However, 61438 was a long way from it’s home shed of York North where it had been allocated since March 1943 (BR Database). It moved to Hull Dairycoates in December 1962 and was withdrawn from there in June 1964. (SLS). It was sold for scrap to Draper’s, Hull, in September 1964 and cut up there at the beginning of October 1964. (BR Database).



Brian

 

[AJC]

The Q1 is definitely shunting milk tanks for South Morden. It's not absolutely certain that they're Express Dairy tanks, but they lack the tell-tail United Dairies features (platforms) and are in the correct place for South Morden. The EMU is a 4 SUB, which is probably also the type Tim was taking the MN shot from - the door toplights are clearly visible.

Adam

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you Adam. Your comments confirm my own feelings about this shot. It's another with (for me) fantastic atmosphere.

A numer of frames here of the same loco, but not at all bad for all that. A2 60523 Sun Castle which we’ve seen so many times previously that I’ll not give references – check using the “Search” function on WT and enter 60523 and oldravendale. 60523 was a Doncaster engine since January 1960. It moved to it's final shed, New England, in October – see the 34E shed plate - and was withdrawn in June 1963. (SLS). It went in to Doncaster Works for cutting up at the end of August. (BR Database). As an observation, for a New England loco this one is remarkably clean.

In this photo it’s entering Platform 11 at Kings Cross with a train from Peterborough on 30th September 1962. Note the Deltic hiding in the shed.



Here’s Sun Castle at the buffer stops in Kings Cross Station Platform 11 having safely delivered the Peterborough train.



Still at the buffer stops but look at the cab side numbering. To my eye there’s a gap between the “605” and the “23”. Is this a prototype for anything opportunity?



Two further shots of Sun Castle at the buffer stops of Platform 11 at Kings Cross having brought in a train from Peterborough.





Brian

 

[oldravendale]

Four pictures of Jubilee 45569 Tasmania on a Bradford special in the gloom that was the old St Pancras on 30th September 1962. The SLS advises the loco was at Carlisle Upperby in March 1956 and was withdrawn from there on 25th April 1964. However, there appears to be a spurious mention of it being further allocated to Patricoft in May as it was photographed in C Shop at Crewe Works in April and was scrapped at Crewe in May 1964. (WHTS and BR Database). "Tasmania" is far from the shortest of Jubilee names and this loco has a nameplate which does, indeed, look small so my earlier reference to a small nameplate when dealing with a previous picture is clearly erroneous.









Brian

 

[simond]

Was it “gloomy” or just filthy?

I didn‘t use StP before HS1 opened, so I don’t remember it prior to modernisation, but the roof and end looked very much as it does now, but very much dirtier. (And without the Emin lights)

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Was it “gloomy” or just filthy?

Both - the filth leads to the gloom and it still was in 1990s before the HS1 redevelopment. I remember St Pancras looking seedy in the 1980s and 1990s.

In the 1960s St Pancras was under threat of closure and services were effectively cut back to Sheffield with the odd one further afield and the suburban services to St Albans, Luton and Bedford. It was of course a diversionary route while Euston was being rebuilt as part of the WCML electrification. At one stage the roof was in danger of collapsing.

It fell into further decline when the Snow Hill tunnels were reopened in the 1990, following the earlier suburban electrification, with all suburban services being diverted to Moorgate, Farringdon, Blackfriars, London Bridge, Sevenoaks, Sutton and Brighton (Holborn Viaduct was closed to be replaced by City Thameslink) . While a handful of diesel hauled services remained to Leicester, Derby, Nottingham and Sheffield.

This is one of my dad's photos of St Pancras taken in the mid-1950s prior to the 1957 resignalling thereby pre-dating Tim's photos by 5 years or so. It looked gloomy then.

 

[Martin Shaw]

There are some contradictions in the various sources of information regarding the allocation of Tasmania, neither of mine have any mention of Carlisle Upperby. Interestingly 45568 Western Australia, another long standing Leeds Holbeck engine went to Newton Heath 4/64 as a paper transfer. Leeds Holbeck was 20A until Sep 56 when it became 55A and therefore an ER shed, I wonder if there was a move to get rid of LM steam locos prior to some modernisation of ER services. Also the chances of a Carlisle engine being used on an excursion from St P seems a little unlikely,

45569
Irwell Book of, Leeds Holbeck 31/10/42, Wdn w/e 25/4/64 after paper transfer to Patricroft.
Longworth, Leeds Holbeck 1/1/48, Patricroft 4/64, Wdn 4/64. (The difference in the Leeds allocation date is due to the book starting at nationalisation).

I used St P a lot in the 70s either going to Derby or Nottingham, the Divisional S&T Engineer was based there. It was a filthy dirty gloomy cavern of a place and the train shed seemed permanently hazy with diesel exhaust fumes. A Mk1 on original bogies at 100mph on th Midland main line was an experience well remembered.

Martin

 

[Roger Pound]

The B16 at Marylebone (#3449) was most enjoyable. I look forward to seeing the further views of it. This class of loco was not uncommon further north on the GC London Extension - there was a regular evening 'up' working which we Leicester spotters called "The York Goods" which was a regular turn for B16's. I believe they worked as far as Woodford Halse, where the Western Region took over the working to Swindon. It was always looked out for as another number to cross off in one's 'abc', as it was rare to a loco on the working more than once. I have no idea of the time of the return working - way after my bed time in those days, I suspect!

Apropos your comments about the nameplate on 456569 'Tasmania' , Brian - that does give a little more credence to my thoughts in #3408......... !

Roger.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

On the subject of St Pancras..... one from the family tales.

My dad's father (my grandfather) had relatives who owned the Turkey Inn in Goose Eye (about 500m down the hill from where I live today). Before WWII they used to stay with them in summer and travel up to Keighley by train.

At the time they lived in Sheerness and my grandfather used to reserve compartments on the train from St Pancras to Leeds and from Leeds to Keighley. These are two of the compartment labels my grandfather managed to remove from the compartment. Having been brought up on the Midland Railway (Bradford and Leigh-on Sea) my grandather used this route rather than the LNER to reach Leeds.

Out of curiosity I checked a LMS timetable for 1934 although the dates are missing from the reservations. The 11.50pm provided 3rd class sleeping accomodation between St Pancras and Leeds. Green reservation; dep. St Pancras 11.50pm (23hr50) - arr Leeds Wellington 5.51am (05hr51). Red reservation; dep Leeds Wellington 6.10am (06hr10) - arr. Keighley 6.45am (06hr45), this was a Leeds Wellington - Carlisle train.




At the time they used to travel overnight from St Pancras to Keighley and vice versa and my dad recalls a story when they were waiting at Keighley travelling home. either late at night or in the early hours, the station staff laid and lit a fire for them in the waiting room to keep warm while waiting for the train. You just wouldn't get such attention or service today, let alone find an open waiting room or a waiting room for that matter.

 

[oldravendale]

Simon - the gloom was a combination of utter filth and as Yorkshire Dave proposes lack of any attention except for essential maintenance. I always found it a profoundly depressing place compared with Kings Cross next door. Dave's done a good job in describing the background to the run down appearance.

Martin - thanks for your as well and the details for the Jubilee.

Thank you, Roger, for some interesting stuff there about B16s and the GC. As I said, more to come. I note your comments about "Tasmania" too.

Yorkshire Dave - that's a most interesting diversion from the photo archive and will be added to the accompanying info. Thank you.

We saw this loco in post #2378. Castle 7029 Clun Castle on shed at Old Oak Common on 21st October. Clun Castle's history is well known as it's now in preservation but the potted version is this: In August 1962 it moved from Newton Abbot to Old Oak Common and in October 1964 to Gloucester Horton Road. It was withdrawn at the very end of 1965 from whence it went straight in to preservation. I have a photo of it in decent condition at Southall in May 1965 with no shed plate. On June 11th it became the last steam loco out of Paddington (in regular service) so may have been at Southall in preparation. For detail see 7029 Clun Castle



A close up of the cylinder and mechanism of a Castle class loco – possibly 7029 Clun Castle above – at Old Oak Common on 21st October 1962.



Another close up – this time of a King Class, almost certainly 6005 King George II – there's another photo showing the same pattern of weathering on the boiler - at Old Oak Common on 21st October 1962.



Brian

 

[oldravendale]

A rear view of Castle 4093, Dunster Castle, at Old Oak Common on 21st October 1962. It had been at Landore since November 1952 and loaned to Llanelli in February 1963 and then allocated to St Philips Marsh in March the same year. The final shed was Gloucester Horton Road where it was withdrawn in September 1964. It was scrapped at Cashmore’s Newport in January 1965.



Another rear view, this time of King 6005 King George II at home at Old Oak Common on 21st October 1962. This moved to Old Oak on 6th October 1962 from Stafford Road. It was withdrawn in November 1962 and sold for scrap in October 1963 and scrapped at Cashmore’s Great Bridge. (SLS and BR Database). If you look at that weathering pattern under the front of the boiler you'll see why I believe the close up above to be the same loco.



57XX 0-6-0PT 8767 among a number of views “inside Old Oak Common Roundhouse” on 21st October 1962. 8767 had been at Old Oak since at least 1947, moved to Oxley in July 1963, Stourbridge Junction in May 1966, Croes Newydd in July the same year where it lasted a week before withdrawal. (Combination of info from BR Database and SLS). It was scrapped at Cohen’s, Kettering, in November 1966.



Brian

 

[LarryG]

Rode behind an original B16 Leeds to York in May 1961 and it was the most exhilarating ride I ever had behind steam. Nostalgia for things that we think are old means a lot more to us when we're young.