Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[oldravendale]

From my perspective it's most rewarding to receive so many "Likes" for the photos on this thread and makes the continuing effort to show the photos really worthwhile. I'm also aware that there are a few who don't add their "Likes" but are regular viewers because of the comments they leave. Thank you all.

Larry - I never saw a B16 let alone rode behind one. I'd always thought of them as fast freight locos but like many others (LNER V2s, LSWR S15s and Black 5s) to name but three were capable of putting in passenger train performance when required.

This is one of the “Views inside the Roundhouse at Old Oak Common” on 21st October 1962. Although identification of the various locos is not possible the photo is a reminder of a working, busy and enormous MPD and for me exudes atmosphere.



Another view in Old Oak on 21st October 1962. The locos are clearly 15XX Class 0-6-0 PTs but not identified. A later photo (img2806) suggests the loco on the right could be 1504.



A very underexposed image inside the roundhouse at Old Oak Common on 21st October 1962. From the left Modified Hall 6988 Swithland Hall, another Modified Hall with a number starting 696- but not identified and Hall 4903 Astley Hall. Swithland Hall home shed was Bristol Barrow Road and it moved to Westbury in September 1963 where it was withdrawn on 5th October 1964. (SLS. It was then reported at Hayes Bridgend on 27th October 1964 (WHTS) although WHTS also report it as in store at Westbury from September to November 1964. It was scrapped in December the same year. (BR Database). Astley Hall was last seen in post #1192 and at the time of this photo had been allocated to Gloucester Horton Road since early October 1962, moving to Old Oak Common in November the same year, then Taunton in June 1963, Southall in September 1963 and then Worcester in September 1964 where it was withdrawn in October (SLS), going to Steel Supply Co, Jersey Marine (WHTS), where it was scrapped by the end of April 1964. (BR Database).



Brian

 

[Martin Shaw]

Of the three pannier tanks, the one on the extreme left isn't a 15xx, the narrower chimney and handrail along the tankside point to another, quite possibly a non-condensing 97xx which Old Oak had a few. Of the 10 15xx built, five had been withdrawn by the time of the photo which leaves 1500/3/4/6/7, all allocated to Old Oak, not a massive help really.
Martin

 

[SimonT]

It's a 94, but no idea which one. High Belpaire firebox, four knob handrail on the tank side.

And to name a fourth ........?

 

[oldravendale]

Actually I recognise and recognised the half seen loco on the let of the shot as a 94XX but chose to ignore it... The subjects are, after all, the two 15XX panniers. As for the numbers, in this shot they are of relatively minor importance.

B

 

[Genghis]

Larry - I never saw a B16 let alone rode behind one. I'd always thought of them as fast freight locos but like many others (LNER V2s, LSWR S15s and Black 5s) to name but three were capable of putting in passenger train performance when required.

A good friend of mine, who in his career at London Underground was responsible for the pannier tanks, tells me that his favourite memory of loco performance was on the relief Mid Day Scot from Euston. Euston to Crewe behind a Britannia, Crewe to Carlisle behind a 'Big Un' and then horror of horrors, a Black 5 for the rest of the journey. He expected to be looped at Beattock, but not. The crew whistled that they were going for it and did. They went for it, and although down to 30 at the top, they made it. He remembers more of that part of the journey than the rest!

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks all for the continuing comments. Regrettably I have no first hand experience of an outstanding run behind steam. I'm aware that, despite their performance on the West Coast main line they were not liked by all railwaymen. Yorkshire Dave has already referred to the use of Black 5s as reported by his father whose comment went along the lines of "as soon as we knew they'd put a Black 5 on the front we'd lose time". I can't remember whether that was on the ex GCR lines but if so the poor performance was doubtless down to negligent maintenance. Edit. By coincidence I was just updating the file about a Scottish Black 5 and came across the original comment from Dave which said that the poor performance was on the Midland Main Line which is a surprise as they were widely used there.

15XX pannier tank 1504 inside Old Oak Common shed on 21st October 1962. This has featured in many previous posts so if of interest a search will be required. 1504 was an Old Oak Common engine for all its short life being withdrawn in early May 1963. (SLS). It went to T W Ward at Briton Ferry where it was scrapped by May 1964. (Rail UK) Looking at the surrounding accoutrements I suspect that this is the loco on the right of the two above in post #3461.



An unidentified and withdrawn Castle in Old Oak Common Yard on 21st October 1962. Of note is the coal piled high in the tender suggesting that withdrawal came as a bit of a surprise!



The cab of what I believe to be a withdrawn King at Old Oak Common on 21st October 1962. Sadly no other details are available. The tender looks well loaded again, as does the one below.



A line of withdrawn locos at Old Oak Common on 21st October 1962. The overall good condition suggests it’s only recently been withdrawn and there are also no enthusiast chalk marks to identify it. Kings withdrawn from OOC were 6004 19th June 1962, 6005 20th November 1962, 6009 30th September 1962, 6011 18th December 1962, 6018 also 18th December 1962, 6021 21st September 1962, 6023 19th June 1962, 6025 18th December 1962, 6026 12th September 1962, 6028 20th November 1962 and 6029 24th July 1962. Considering the date of the photo withdrawals after 21st October 1962 cannot qualify. Both Tim and I have a photo of 6023 and in both there is a row of panniers behind so it's not that one. The most recent withdrawal before the date of the photo is 6009 and the condition of this one suggests it to be the most likely candidate, although 6004, 6021, 6023, 6026 and 6029 cannot be discounted as none were actually scrapped before the date of the photo.

WHTS advises 6004 was stopped at Cardiff Canton and dispatched from there to Swindon so although an Old Oak engine was not physically there at the time of withdrawal. 6021 was in store at Old Oak before being dispatched to Cashmore’s, Newport. 6023 was also reportedly in store at Cardiff Canton and this is repeated in the “Preserved British Steam Locomotives” site so my own supposed sighting at Old Oak may be in error – in the case of withdrawn locos it was my practice to check the numbers stamped in to the motion believing these to be an accurate reference, but perhaps not. 6026 was reported as in store at Old Oak as was 6029 so remain a possible.

In short this was rather a wasted exercise as I’ve narrowed the field to three possibles!



We'll get back to some working locos later - Tim was never very keen on photos of withdrawn locos.

Brian

 

[AJC]

The footplate shot is definitely a King - the pair of (red) route availability/power discs was unique to the class.

Adam

 

[SimonT]

Brian,
I'm not sure looking at the actual Allocations Book is going to help! Of your choices, here are the allocations.

6004 St Rd. 5Apr61 Shopped SDN, 3Aug61 CDF, 15Jun62 Cond, 31Jul62 SDN.
6009 OOC 16Mar62 Shopped SDN, 18Jun62 OOC, 3Aug62 Stored. 7Sep62 Cond.
6021 OOC 21Jul61 Shopped SDN, 25Sep61 OOC, 7Sep62 Cond.
6023 CDF 23Jun61 Shopped SDN, 9Mar CDF, 23Jun 62 Cond.
6029 OOC 13 Jan Shopped SDN, 29Mar61 OOC, 23JUl62 Cond.
The Allocations Book didn't record where the loco was condemened as I suspect at the time nobody cared.

I suspect that St Rd is Wolverhampton Stafford Road although I always thought that Oxley handled the Northern Kings.

7 Sep 62 was a black day for the Kings as 6002, 6007, 6009, 6014, 6015, 6016, 6019, 6012, 6022, 6026 and 6027 are recorded as condemned. That left four to last until Nov and then the last three until 21Dec to be condemned. Sounds like a management edict.

I can send you the image of the appropriate page of the book if you want to play Stick the Tail on the Donkey!

Simon

 

[Roger Pound]

It was quite well known among enthusiasts in the East Midlands that anything from the Midland Region cascaded to the GC to replace B1 and V2 classes for passenger working was automatically disliked by GC crews, generally speaking. Pictures in "Great Central Twilight " by Colin Walker provide an example of a crews feelings when faced with having a 'Jubilee' allocated for their next working. When the axe finally fell on the line, many of the staff migrated across to the London Midland shed where steam was still extant and carried on their careers, undoubtedly on Black 5's and other Midland types they had come across on the GC .

There was the odd factor that GC engine-men always seemed to be alright with the Stanier 8F locos, frequently seen on that line a number of years before run-down and closure. Perhaps there was something in the fact that the former LNER management had a class of several of these machines (Class 06) which had been transferred to the LMS in 1947 and were renumbered in to the LMS series. They became 48705 - 48772 in BR days .

The question of maintenance on the cascaded locos will always remain a factor in this argument, but I'm afraid that I am insufficiently qualified to discuss that aspect further. My simple view has long been that it all came down as a "horses for courses" situation! Make of that what you wish. No doubt those of you with greater knowledge and experience of this latter point will be able to advise.

Roger

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks Adam. I should have noted the route availability/power discs to confirm the class.

Thanks so much for all that info, Simon. I'd not previously considered that it would matter not a jot or tittle where the locos were when the edict to withdrawn them was made. That accounts for storage of locos well away from their home sheds. I'll pass on the image of the page but thank you for your kind offer. My head is spinning already!

Roger - interesting additional stuff on the Black 5 performance. For me the strange thing about the comment made very early in this thread about Dave's fathers experience of Black 5s was on the Midland main line rather than the GC. I'd have understood the problem on the GC...

With reference to the photo following this one I believe this is A4 60013 Dominion of New Zealand in a view looking to the south of Finsbury Park on 4th October 1962. This loco has been seen previously in post #2949. It had been allocated to Kings Cross since the end of June 1950 and was withdrawn in mid April 1963. (SLS). It was scrapped at Doncaster Works by the end of the same month. (BR Database).



A4 60013 Dominion of New Zealand on the 9.20am White Rose to Leeds at Finsbury Park on 4th October 1962 (see above).



A view of Kentish Town Shed Yard with Jubilee 45573 Newfoundland and Flying Pig 43118 on 8th October 1962. Newfoundland was allocated to Holbeck Shed since at least 1946 and was withdrawn from there at the beginning of September 1965. It was scrapped at Clayton and Davie at Dunston on Tyne during January 1966. 43118 had just been transferred from Cricklewood where it had been since November 1952 to Wellingborough on 6th October 1962. It went to Stoke in October 1963, Lower Darwen in February 1965, Lostock Hall in March 1966 and finally Workington in April 1967 where it was withdrawn in November the same year. WHTS propose that it was scrapped at Campbell’s Airdrie, although verification is required and BR Database suggest the date of scrapping as March 1968.



Three more of Ivatt Class 4 2-6-0 43118 in the shed yard at Kentish Town on 8th October 1962. An observation that in the third shot the reporting number which looks like 3G06 is on the tender rather than the loco. This suggests to me that it may be used tender first on empty stock from St Pancras, so why not turn the loco such that it's smokebox leading but I have no knowledge of what sort of train this reporting number represents?







Brian

 

[oldravendale]

Johnson MR 0-6-0T 47202 and Fowler 3P 2-6-2T 40022 in store at Kentish Town on 8th October 1962. One might quite reasonably expect that both would be withdrawn but that wasn’t the case. 47202 had been allocated to Kentish Town since January 1950 and moved to Cricklewood in September 1962 although as we have photographic evidence that it was physically at Kentish Town that was a book transfer yet to happen in reality. Coincidentally I have a photo of my own of the loco at Cricklewood in September 1963 and it still has sacking over the chimney so remained in store. It moved to Gorton in November 1963 and Fleetwood in March 1964. That was followed by Agecroft in October 1965 and Newton Heath in August 1966 where it was withdrawn in the following December. (SLS). I wonder if it ever turned a wheel at those later depots in service. It then went to Ward’s, Beighton, Sheffield (RO) where it was scrapped in April 1967. 40022 however was on it’s way to withdrawal. It was allocated to Kentish Town in March 1961 and then Cricklewood in September 1962 where it’s unlikely it ever worked and was formally withdrawn in December the same year. Railway Observer reported it in Derby Works and BR Database advise it was scrapped in March 1963 although WHTS reported it was photographed in April.



Last seen in post #874 is Jinty 47501 shunting at Willesden on 4th October 1962. Two photos here of this long term resident of Willesden having been there since December 1957. 47501 was withdrawn from Willesden in September 1964 SLS) and was scrapped at Cohens Kettering in February 1965. (BR Database).





Royal Scot 46111 Royal Fusilier in the roundhouse at Willesden on 4th October 1962 complete with 1A (Willesden) shed plate. This was last in post #1752. It was allocated to Willesden in July 1961 and was one of that sorry number moving to Annesley in February 1963. It was withdrawn in September. (SLS). It went to Crewe (WHTS) where it was scrapped in November 1963. (BR Database). It was observed within the works in October. (WHTS).



Brian

 

[simond]

That last photo is something quite magical. Lovely.

 

[mickoo]

After the next couple of pictures we'll be leaving the Southern for a bit although there will be more to come somewhat later.

Rebuilt Merchant Navy 35017 Belgian Marine on a down express at Clapham Junction...............

Brian

Not Clapham I fear, too built up to be Clapham.

I'd place this just before Vauxhall, it's the only section (Waterloo - Queens Park) where there are eight running lines on a viaduct and the only significant LH curve (down trains) in this section.



It's all changed today but there looks to be a bridge beam behind the MN which I'm sure is Salamanca Street.



The sun angle makes this a late afternoon / evening departure.

 

[oldravendale]

I agree Simon. That Scot's a cracker.

Once again, Mick, you come to the rescue. Perhaps the photo was mis-named because Tim was on his way from Clapham to Waterloo and had no knowledge of the geographical location. I'll be updating the info accordingly and thank you.

Caprotti Black 5 44748 coaling at Willesden on 4th October 1962. Note the 8F with (I believe) a Fowler tender to the right. If I’m incorrect I’ll edit the entry later. 44748 had been a Longsight engine since new in February 1948 although it went to Derby for a week on loan, also in February 1948 before being returned to Longsight a week later. (SLS). I wonder whether it was called in to Derby for some sort of test procedure. It was withdrawn in September 1964. (SLS). BR Database report it scrapped in December 1964 and WHTS that this was at Crewe Works although verification is required.



Two views of A4 60013 Dominion of New Zealand awaiting departure and then departing with The White Rose at Kings Cross on 6th October 1962. This loco has been seen previously in post #2949 and most recently in post #3470. It had been allocated to Kings Cross since the end of June 1950 and was withdrawn in mid April 1963. (SLS). It was scrapped at Doncaster Works by the end of the same month. (BR Database).





Jinty 47543 on a transfer freight from the Southern Region at Acton on 4th October 1962. It was allocated to Cricklewood from March 1962, then Hasland in August 1963 and finally Westhouses in November 1964 where it was withdrawn in October 1965. (SLS). It was scrapped in January 1966 (BR Database) at Ward’s, Killamarsh, Sheffield. (RO).



Brian

 

[LarryG]

Regarding the Fowler Class 3 2-6-2T's, I travelled behind them as a boy up until the Delph service ended when I was 13. Little did I know that part of my footplate training at Bolton would be on some of these cold rusty lifeless machines. I had hoped they were still working the St.Pancras-Bedford service when I moved to St.albans for a short spell, but the hydraulic Cravens had taken over.

 

[Genghis]

Love the gorilla black 5!

 

[Martin Shaw]

The 8F in #2820 is probably either 48601 or 48603, built originally by the SR, both Willesden engines with Fowler tenders. Of the remaining possible eight, 8604/6-9 had Stanier tenders all their lives, 8605 was at the time a Northwich engine but had the right type of tender, 8602 wasn't rebalanced, 8600 had a flat sided tender ex Jubilee 45719.
Martin

 

[Dog Star]

Jinty 47543 on a transfer freight from the Southern Region at Acton on 4th October 1962.

View attachment 214277

Never mind the jocko, the interest is in the wagon. I think that the photo shows a rivetted 16T mineral with what looks like a half side sheet repair to each side of the door. Nothing unusual about replating the lower side although at the date of the photo I would expect the repair metal to be welded in place rather than, as I think, rivetted to stanchion, floor and to the top half sheeting.

If my surmise is correct, was rivetting top and bottom plates a common repair method?

rgds, G

 

[AJC]

Jinty 47543 on a transfer freight from the Southern Region at Acton on 4th October 1962. It was allocated to Cricklewood from March 1962, then Hasland in August 1963 and finally Westhouses in November 1964 where it was withdrawn in October 1965. (SLS). It was scrapped in January 1966 (BR Database) at Ward’s, Killamarsh, Sheffield. (RO).

View attachment 214277

Brian

Never mind the jocko, the interest is in the wagon. I think that the photo shows a rivetted 16T mineral with what looks like a half side sheet repair to each side of the door. Nothing unusual about replating the lower side although at the date of the photo I would expect the repair metal to be welded in place rather than, as I think, rivetted to stanchion, floor and to the top half sheeting.

If my surmise is correct, was rivetting top and bottom plates a common repair method?

rgds, G

Yes, it’s a very interesting vehicle, probably one of those built for the Ministry of War Transport (I think what BR dubbed dia. 1/103, or maybe a 1/105 - BR 16T Mineral early MoWT independent brakes - check the varied repair patterns). The riveted repairs are fairly routine, but look as though they came in two stages, the most recent being marked by the dark - probably black - paint over them. In other words, the bottom rotted out twice, or perhaps the sides first and then the floor. EDIT: on a second look, it looks as though the side plate is riveted to a folded sheet, which hints at a floor repair. The welded door probably comes from the first repair phase.

Note that the bottom door markings are applied directly to the grey livery colour. Not that unusual, but not what’s in the spec’.

We can’t tell what sort of end door it has, but it was probably built with a pressed steel one.

A good spot!

Adam

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Jinty 47543 on a transfer freight from the Southern Region at Acton on 4th October 1962. It was allocated to Cricklewood from March 1962, then Hasland in August 1963 and finally Westhouses in November 1964 where it was withdrawn in October 1965. (SLS). It was scrapped in January 1966 (BR Database) at Ward’s, Killamarsh, Sheffield. (RO).

Haha - I have no interest in the loco or wagon , however the location.....

I would say this is taken at the bridge where the North London Line crosses the Central line at the back of Old Oak Common (there were a few footpaths in the area) and only started looking as a third rail is visible suggested by the cables and hangers indicating it's somewhere on the North London Line.

The annotated the NLS extract of the OS 1:2,500 A ed. 1948-1973 series map to show the location. At this period the North London Line was electrified at 630V DC 3rd rail (same as LT) for it's route. Today it is electrified at 25kV AC from Stratford to Acton Central where it changes over to 630v DC third rail towards Richmond. North Acton Central Line Station is about 340m (370 yards) down the line under the bridge to the left as viewed.

In the background of the photo there appears to be some shear legs/derrick which would be commensurate with the Scrap Metal Yard shown on the map extract.



Regarding the area containing the scrap metal yard off Victoria Road belows is an extract from British History On-Line Acton: Economic history A History of the County of Middlesex: Volume 7, Acton, Chiswick, Ealing and Brentford, West Twyford, Willesden Originally published by Victoria County History, London, 1982. Acton: Economic history | British History Online

During the First World War, Park Royal was used as a large horse compound for the Royal Army Service Corps. (fn. 120) Munitions factories, employing mainly Willesden residents, were built in Willesden Lane and Victoria Road, Acton, and closed towards the end of 1918, (fn. 121) becoming derelict. In 1928 the government sold 5 a. with their buildings to Allnatt Ltd., for scrap metal sorting, and offers received for the premises revealed a growing demand for small ready-built factories. (fn. 122)