Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[oldravendale]

Well, judging by the "Likes" the A4s are more popular than the B16s which is actually a bit of a surprise to me. Larry - when you refer to negatives of original B16s are you thinking "as built"? I'm guessing so as I have the negatives for this set of photos and for a few others at York Shed.

Hi again Roger. I'm pleased that these photos revise memories for you. As I mentioned that Black 5 appears elsewhere in the collection so was certainly not shy about making an appearance.

Brian - that's a super then and - I was going to say "now" but it's 35 years ago so a period shot in its own right. Thank you for posting.

A3 60065 Knight of Thistle on arrival at Kings Cross on 22nd September 1962 with the 7.50am train from Peterborough. The 34A shed plate confirms the loco as now living at New England so the shining paintwork is a great surprise! This loco has appeared in this thread many times, for example posts #1429. #1566 and #1763. It was fitted with German style deflectors which it had carried since November 1961. It became a New England engine from June 1962 from where it was withdrawn in June 1964 going to A Kings and Sons of Norwich where it was scrapped in August the same year. (SLS & RailUK).



Now a study in five photos of Caprotti Black 5 44757 on shed in Kentish Town on 1st September 1962. In fairness, you wouldn't let your daughter out looking like that, would you? It was new to Holbeck in January 1949 and moved to Lower Darwen in November 1963 and Southport in December the same year where it was withdrawn in November 1965. (SLS). It went to Cashmore's, Great Bridge, where it was scrapped in February 1966. I note the presence of the oil tankers in these shots which were commented upon following a previous photo. These better pictures may assist identification.











A row of three Standard 2MT 2-6-2T in store at Kentish Town on 1st September 1962. The front one is 84008, the second 84005 but the third is not identified. Despite their unkempt appearance here both the identified locos went on to give further service. 84008 moved to Kentish Town from Neasden in August 1962 but it looks as though there was no work for it locally so it went to Leicester Midland at the end of December. From there it went to Wellingborough in May 1963, back to Leicester Midland in March 1964 and back to Wellingborough in June the same year before finally returning to Leicester Midland in October where it was withdrawn a year later. (SLS). It was scrapped at Buttigiegs, Newport, in January 1966. (BR Database). With slight variation 84005 followed the same process starting with transfer from Neasden to Kentish Town in August 1962, then Bedford in February 1963, Welingborough March 1963, Leicester Midland March 1964, Wellingborough June 1964 and Leicester Midland in October 1964. (SLS). Withdrawal followed in October 1965 (SLS) and it probably accompanied 84008 to Buttigiegs Newport where it was also scrapped in January 1966. (BR Database).

I have a photo I took in October 1961, leaky tanks and all, at Neasden although not apparently in store at the time. I'm racking my brains as to why a push-pull fitted loco would be allocated to Neasden - the only branch line I can think of is the Met Line to Chesham and from this evidence it looks as though there were at least three of these 2-6-2 tanks allocated to Neasden (always assuming that the third loco in the row above also came from Neasden).



Brian

 

[Genghis]

Daughter no, but if my son looked like that then I would know that he could take care of himself....................

I must have a strange taste in locos as I really like the Caprotti black 5's, especially the final two.

 

[Ian@StEnochs]

That Daughter comment made me smile.

Caprotti 5 pretty? No but attitude in buckets, I like them a lot but never saw one.

 

[Dan Randall]

I must have a strange taste in locos as I really like the Caprotti black 5's, especially the final two.

I like the Caprotti Black 5s too (especially the gorilla steam pipes version, as seen above) and with you being a kit manufacturer, your words fill me with some hope for a future kit…


Regards

Dan

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

I have a photo I took in October 1961, leaky tanks and all, at Neasden although not apparently in store at the time. I'm racking my brains as to why a push-pull fitted loco would be allocated to Neasden - the only branch line I can think of is the Met Line to Chesham and from this evidence it looks as though there were at least three of these 2-6-2 tanks allocated to Neasden (always assuming that the th

ird loco in the row above also came from Neasden).

The tank locomotives generally seen on the Chesham Flyer/Shuttle were Ivatt 2-6-2Ts with the converted Met/LT 1898 'Ashbury' electric stock The Chesham Flyer. The last steam shuttle ran on 12 September 1960 before the A60 stock took over, which in turn lasted 50 years until 11 December 2010. Now it's the boring S8 stock.

The first two standard 2-6-2Ts in the Kentish Town photo have the LMS style push-pull fittings whist the last does not. While allocated to Neasden they may have operated the then local service from Marylebone to West Ruislip. I say may as Tim's photo in post #2,837 shows a 2 coach local service at Neasden hauled by a Fairburn 2-6-4T.

As we know the main commuter services from Marylebone to Aylesbury and High Wycombe were in the hands of the Fairburn 2-6-4Ts - however at the time of the photo (1962) diesel multiple units had taken over.

 

[Dave Holt]

It looks like the third Standard 2 in the line has had the vacuum control regulator gear removed. All these locos had it fitted when built but I believe a small number had it removed and conventional sloping steam pipe covers fitted, presumably once push-pull operation was no longer required?
Dave.

 

[Martin Shaw]

The RCTS records the last of the three locos in store at Kentish Town as 84029, it too had come from Neasden, which was stored from 19/6/62 - 14/1/63, and 18/3/63 - 6/4/64. It went to Wellingborough in Jan 63 and Leicester in Feb 63 from where it was withdrawn on 13/6/64. It puzzles me why so many vacuum controlled P&P locos were built so late in the day. The ten originally allocated to the Eastern Division SR were no use for P&P work which was sensibly air controlled, and none went to the WR which was mechanical anyway, neither the ScR or the ER had any. It appears with massive amounts of hindsight that the CME and the Chief Operating Officer rather failed to communicate. All 30 of them spent substantial periods in storage serviceable or otherwise. To illustrate,
84005 stored 14/11/60 - 30/6/61, 7/5/62 - 14/1/64, 24/5/65 - 30/10/65 U, Wdn 30/10/65 Leicester LM.
84008 stored 10/4/61 - 21/6/61, 19/6/62 - 24/12/62, 21/6/65 - 30/10/65 U, Wdn 30/10/65 Leicester LM.

I have a pic of 84028 in July 65 with the P&P gear removed on the RHS and standard sloping steam pipe fitted, it was one of the class that got as far as being transferred on paper to the SR for use on the IoW. There doesn't appear to be any relation beteween the events.

In another book I found the following, "84000 - 84019 were built with push pull gear, though this was removed from most of them before withdrawal." This implies that the last ten didn't have it fitted which is photographically disprovable nor can I substantiate the removal of P&P gear.

Martin

 

[Arun Sharma]

I like the Caprotti Black 5s too (especially the gorilla steam pipes version, as seen above) and with you being a kit manufacturer, your words fill me with some hope for a future kit…


Regards

Dan

In the not so distant past I did some 7mm masters for a well known designer of kits of Black 5s and such like. It is just possible that a 7mm Caprotti Black 5 kit will appear.

 

[hrmspaul]

The photos of 44757 show the tank wagons asked about earlier a little clearer. An ICI tank in good condition behind Image 2853 & 6. Can the number be read as we should be able to work out what it is from that. The others are older and I would suggest are for acid - anyone any idea what they might be doing at Kentish Town? The earlier photos some week ago looked like some had the remains of the wartime livery with the warning striping which should go around the whole barrel only being on the lower half - so not identifiable from an enemy aircraft. This did persist on some wagons that lasted long enough to get TOPS numbering and this is a decade earlier.

Paul Bartlett

 

[farnetti]

Well, judging by the "Likes" the A4s are more popular than the B16s which is actually a bit of a surprise to me. Larry - when you refer to negatives of original B16s are you thinking "as built"? I'm guessing so as I have the negatives for this set of photos and for a few others at York Shed.

Hi again Roger. I'm pleased that these photos revise memories for you. As I mentioned that Black 5 appears elsewhere in the collection so was certainly not shy about making an appearance.

Brian - that's a super then and - I was going to say "now" but it's 35 years ago so a period shot in its own right. Thank you for posting.

A3 60065 Knight of Thistle on arrival at Kings Cross on 22nd September 1962 with the 7.50am train from Peterborough. The 34A shed plate confirms the loco as now living at New England so the shining paintwork is a great surprise! This loco has appeared in this thread many times, for example posts #1429. #1566 and #1763. It was fitted with German style deflectors which it had carried since November 1961. It became a New England engine from June 1962 from where it was withdrawn in June 1964 going to A Kings and Sons of Norwich where it was scrapped in August the same year. (SLS & RailUK).

View attachment 214711

Now a study in five photos of Caprotti Black 5 44757 on shed in Kentish Town on 1st September 1962. In fairness, you wouldn't let your daughter out looking like that, would you? It was new to Holbeck in January 1949 and moved to Lower Darwen in November 1963 and Southport in December the same year where it was withdrawn in November 1965. (SLS). It went to Cashmore's, Great Bridge, where it was scrapped in February 1966. I note the presence of the oil tankers in these shots which were commented upon following a previous photo. These better pictures may assist identification.

View attachment 214712

View attachment 214713

View attachment 214714

View attachment 214715

View attachment 214716

A row of three Standard 2MT 2-6-2T in store at Kentish Town on 1st September 1962. The front one is 84008, the second 84005 but the third is not identified. Despite their unkempt appearance here both the identified locos went on to give further service. 84008 moved to Kentish Town from Neasden in August 1962 but it looks as though there was no work for it locally so it went to Leicester Midland at the end of December. From there it went to Wellingborough in May 1963, back to Leicester Midland in March 1964 and back to Wellingborough in June the same year before finally returning to Leicester Midland in October where it was withdrawn a year later. (SLS). It was scrapped at Buttigiegs, Newport, in January 1966. (BR Database). With slight variation 84005 followed the same process starting with transfer from Neasden to Kentish Town in August 1962, then Bedford in February 1963, Welingborough March 1963, Leicester Midland March 1964, Wellingborough June 1964 and Leicester Midland in October 1964. (SLS). Withdrawal followed in October 1965 (SLS) and it probably accompanied 84008 to Buttigiegs Newport where it was also scrapped in January 1966. (BR Database).

I have a photo I took in October 1961, leaky tanks and all, at Neasden although not apparently in store at the time. I'm racking my brains as to why a push-pull fitted loco would be allocated to Neasden - the only branch line I can think of is the Met Line to Chesham and from this evidence it looks as though there were at least three of these 2-6-2 tanks allocated to Neasden (always assuming that the th

ird loco in the row above also came from Neasden).

View attachment 214717

Brian

Most engines of this period exhibited a (very) weathered gloss finish with a matt smokebox. The Caprotti loco shows the reverse and wondered if anyone knows why. Ken

 

[Tim Birch]

Most engines of this period exhibited a (very) weathered gloss finish with a matt smokebox. The Caprotti loco shows the reverse and wondered if anyone knows why. Ken

Could it be a repaint of the smokebox after some work has been done?

 

[hrmspaul]

I had missed the tank wagons altogether, they’re a bit of a mystery. Presumably PO? The boards being to hold the owners name visibly?

Adam

The photos of 44757 show the tank wagons asked about earlier a little clearer. An ICI tank in good condition behind Image 2853 & 6. Can the number be read as we should be able to work out what it is from that. The others are older and I would suggest are for acid - anyone any idea what they might be doing at Kentish Town? The earlier photos some week ago looked like some had the remains of the wartime livery with the warning striping which should go around the whole barrel only being on the lower half - so not identifiable from an enemy aircraft. This did persist on some wagons that lasted long enough to get TOPS numbering and this is a decade earlier.

Paul Bartlett

To answer my own question, it looks to be 7388 which was a 16ton Trichloroethylene tank registered in the LMS/LMR series as 181993 in 1949.

Still a mystery as to the older wagons.

Paul

ICI tank wagons - pre TOPS, caustic soda bogie nitric ammonia

A collection of ICI tank wagons usually unfitted pre TOPS, Includes caustic soda bogie and ammonia liquor.

paulbartlett.zenfolio.com

 

[daifly]

The building behind the tank wagons is of interest (to me anyway!).
Read Brothers. In 1883 acquired an acre of land here and built an export bottling premises plus a laboratory. This was a crenallated building with a Gothic tower and a spire. They produced 50,000 bottles per week and in 1906 were the largest buyers and bottlers of Bass Ale in the world, all sold for export. By 1913 they had increased their land, and had stacking space for 10 million bottles, the largest bottling facility in London. (from North London Line - Gospel Oak)

 

[Overseer]

Still a mystery as to the older wagons.

Could they be phosphoric acid tanks? I don't know whether the bottling plant was making Coca Cola or another brand of similar product needing phosphoric acid.

 

[simond]

The building behind the tank wagons is of interest (to me anyway!).
Read Brothers. In 1883 acquired an acre of land here and built an export bottling premises plus a laboratory. This was a crenallated building with a Gothic tower and a spire. They produced 50,000 bottles per week and in 1906 were the largest buyers and bottlers of Bass Ale in the world, all sold for export. By 1913 they had increased their land, and had stacking space for 10 million bottles, the largest bottling facility in London. (from North London Line - Gospel Oak)

That’s a surprise, to me at least. I always assumed that Bass (indeed all beers) would have been bottled at the brewery.

 

[oldravendale]

Loads of interesting stuff there and thank you. I'll catch up with it a bit later but just to expand... We've had a discussion about the botting plant at Kentish Town previously which may add a bit to Dave's information above. See post #525, page 27, img 418 on 17th January 2021.

Brian

 

[daifly]

Loads of interesting stuff there and thank you. I'll catch up with it a bit later but just to expand... We've had a discussion about the botting plant at Kentish Town previously which may add a bit to Dave's information above. See post #525, page 27, img 418 on 17th January 2021.

You surely don't expect me to remember that far back, do you?!
A quick link to the post:

Prototype - Tim Mills' Photos

Dan, Adam and Tony - thanks for the clarification vis a vis the crane. A picture is worth a thousand words and that one you put up, Tony, explains all. I didn't remember the ash disposal being so close to the coaling stage - I assumed being so close it would be in the way - but apparently not...

www.westernthunder.co.uk

Cheers

Dave

 

[Arun Sharma]

Most engines of this period exhibited a (very) weathered gloss finish with a matt smokebox. The Caprotti loco shows the reverse and wondered if anyone knows why. Ken

I imagine that the various sulphur-based acids generated by buring coal would be at their highest concentration in the smokebox and thus a smokebox might well require some repair long before the boiler cladding. Thus IMO repaint after a repair would be most likely.

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks for yours about Caprottis, Dave, Ian and Dan. "Attitude in buckets". What a lovely phrase and sums up the locos perfectly.

Yorkshire Dave. I'd forgotten about the Marylebone to West Ruislip trains so that's a possible, but so far we have no photographic evidence and none as far as I'm aware, of them working out of Neasden at all. I also suspect that there'd be photos if they'd ever been used on the Chesham shuttle.

Dave H. I'd not noticed that the third loco in that line up has the push-pull gear removed so thanks for bringing that detail up.

Martin. Good background stuff on the 84XXX 2-6-2Ts. They really appear to have been locos looking for a purpose once the majority of branch lines had been closed. Actually they'd have been ideal on our heritage railways.

I wonder if your comments about the work you've done on masters should fill us with hope for a kit Arun or are you just tempting us all???

Paul and Overseer - thanks so much for filling in details about the tank wagons. An interesting subject indeed. I assume Trichloroethylene was towed around the country in such large volumes for the dry cleaning industry and it'd be unlikely that there'd be a need for it at an MPD - or was it perhaps used in one of the cleaning functions on shed? As for the possibility of the older wagons carrying phosphoric acid that would initially seem a possibility but their locations suggest they are in the shed yard rather than separated off for the bottling plant. We'll probably never know.

Ken and Tim - The smokebox question has been asked previously but I don't think in these posts. In the case of glossy smoke boxes I believe Arun is probably correct regarding repair or replacement although in my time viewing engines it never struck me particularly that smoke boxes were routinely more matt than any other part of the loco but that was probably because they all exhibited some level of weathering and if the loco was cleaned the smokebox was too.

Dave - the bottling plant is just something I remember researching (at the highest level) early in these posts because I share an interest in such an ornate building. I made my comment to supplement your valuable contribution for which I thank you. Hope I caused no offence!

Two of Royal Scot 46143 The South Staffordshire Regiment inside the roundhouse at Kentish Town on 1st September 1962. It was allocated to Annesley at the beginning of October 1962 so may have been on the way there - in November 1959 it was allocated to Bushbury and loaned to Trafford Park at the end of December 1960. (SLS). It was withdrawn in December 1963 and noted outside Crewe Works a little earlier in the month. (SLS). It was scrapped in January 1964. (BR Database).




Now three different views of the same group of engines, Fowler 3P 2-6-2T 40026, Jubilee 45620 North Borneo, Ivatt Class 4 2-6-0 43118, Fowler 0-6-0 44210 and Black 5 44717 around the turntable at Kentish Town on 1st September 1962.

40026 was allocated to Kentish Town in May 1962 and withdrawn the following December. (SLS). It spent a period in store at Cricklewood where it was recorded in October (WHTS) before being recorded at Derby Works by the SLS. BR Database advise it was scrapped in April 1963 so it's reasonable to assume the deed was done at Derby.

45620 was at Burton from December 1961 where it was withdrawn in September 1964. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore's, Great Bridge, in January 1965. (BR Database).

43118 was recently in post #3470 - It was at Cricklewood from November 1952 then went to Wellingborough on 6th October 1962. It moved to Stoke in October 1963, Lower Darwen in February 1965, Lostock Hall in March 1966 and finally Workington in April 1967 where it was withdrawn in November the same year. WHTS propose that it was scrapped at Campbell’s Airdrie, although verification is required and BR Database suggest the date of scrapping as March 1968.

44210 is clearly in store. It had been a Kentish Town engine since the end of 1949, moved to Cricklewood theoretically on the same day as the photo was taken, 1st September 1962, then Toton in March 1963, Coalville in August 1964 and Bescot in December the same year where it was withdrawn in October 1965. (SLS). It then went to Cashmore's, Great Bridge, where it was scrapped in December the same year. (BR Database).

The Black 5, 44717, was a recent addition to the Kentish Town allocation, arriving there in August 1962 after which it went to Annesley in October the same year and Edge Hill in August 1965 where it was withdrawn in August 1967. (SLS). The Railway Observer report it at Buttigieg's, Newport and BR Database advise a scrapping date of March 1968.





Two of the selection above, 2-6-0 43118 and Jubilee 45620.



Two here of 94XX pannier tank 9411 on a trip freight at North Acton on 19th September 1962. We saw this loco previously at Old Oak Common in post #2207. It had been at Old Oak since 1951 and was withdrawn in June 1965. (SLS). It went to T W Ward, Briton Ferry where it was scrapped by the end of October 1966.





Brian

 

[AJC]

That last picture is magnificent! Two different types of Carflat - the first a conversion from GW stock as the second might be, though to a different pattern (I don't know a lot about these). Behind them a pair of Tierwags which Tri-Ang made a representation of. Empty to Cowley, perhaps?

Adam