Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[oldravendale]

Thank you, Adam, for a bit more meat on the wagon bones.

Michael - you are so right. It was all so routine until suddenly, one day, it was gone.

Thanks for confirming the allocations of that 8F, Martin. It looks as though it probably was indeed a long way from home.

Two here of V2 60914 carrying a 34E New England shed plate and crew on the 6.32 York Parcels at Kings Cross on 1st September 1962. It had been a New England loco since October 1959 and was withdrawn in September 1962 (SLS) going to Doncaster Works where it was scrapped in December the same year. (BR Database).





Two more of A4 60013 Dominion of New Zealand at Kings cross in an undated scene but probably 6th October 1962 - in fact probably on the same date and location as shown in post #3474. If so it's departing with The White Rose at Kings Cross on 6th October 1962. This loco has been seen previously in posts #2949 and #3470. It had been allocated to Kings Cross since the end of June 1950 and was withdrawn in mid April 1963. (SLS). It was scrapped at Doncaster Works by the end of the same month. (BR Database).





Brian

 

[simond]

It was a long time ago…. I am astonished by the massive pile of what I take to be mail bags on the left hand platform.

Presuming they are mailbags, was that normal? Every day? Don’t see it modelled very often!!!

I believe the White Rose was to 0850 KGX to Leeds return 1537?

 

[oldravendale]

You're right, Simon, and we too easily forget that this photo was taken a lifetime ago - 61 years in fact. I'm pretty sure those are mail bags - as we've seen previously there's even been a calf crate recorded by Tim at Kings Cross. At the time there was a huge amount of parcels traffic carried by passenger trains. When I first started work we used to have a delivery to our local station every day of parcels to be carried by passenger train as the most reliable means of getting goods to far distant destinations.

Having looked at these shots again I'm not convinced that the V2 is on a parcels train. Although an acute angle the photo back along the train seems to show passenger carriages and not parcels vans - there's also a lack of any parcels on the platform. In my own memory I don't think I ever saw parcels on that platform which was always the favourite for us train spotters.

Brian

 

[Eastsidepilot]

I can recall the mailbags on the up platform of Rayleigh station being collected by the class 15 hauled parcels in the mid 60's. My mate who lived next door would go down to meet his Father coming home from London which seemed to be timed with the arrival of this parcels train, on occasions I'd go with him on our bikes, mainly with the sole intention of seeing what we thought was a bloody great diesel, we'd stand next to it just taking in the sound and smell of it whilst the piles of mail bags were 'thrown' in the carriages. I was a petrol head at an early age !

Col.

 

[simond]

I’m old enough to have used Red Star parcels, which was a brilliant service. Don’t recall how expensive (or not) it was.

 

[Martin Shaw]

The V2 has express passenger lamps so likely not a parcels train.
Martin

 

[Roger Pound]

My work took me to London on occasion , well in to the diesel era unfortunately, but I recall an occasion when I had to stay overnight an evening visit to 'The Cross' seemed a good idea. For someone more familiar with next door (St. Pancras) it was extremely interesting and a lot of different aspects to see, The outstanding one was seeing a section of one platform filled with containers of cut flowers in transit, their scent briefly overcoming the fumes of an adjacent 'Deltic' awaiting departure. A truly deafening machine at close quarters ! The blooms were just another of the many diverse items that travelled by rail in those days. We took it all for granted and thought it would last for ever - but of course, it didn't. I suppose it comes under the general heading of 'progress'. .

Roger

 

[Arun Sharma]

Having looked at these shots again I'm not convinced that the V2 is on a parcels train. Although an acute angle the photo back along the train seems to show passenger carriages and not parcels vans - there's also a lack of any parcels on the platform. In my own memory I don't think I ever saw parcels on that platform which was always the favourite for us train spotters.

Brian

The V2's headcode lamps are those for an express. Would a fitted parcels train have used that headcode - or was it reserved for express passenger [and of course breakdown trains proceeding to an incident]?

 

[Eastsidepilot]

Looking at photo's of parcels trains here Parcels traffic in BR days - Steve Banks
it shows that the head codes on the whole were lamps on the left ( facing) and centre.

 

[djparkins]

I’m old enough to have used Red Star parcels, which was a brilliant service. Don’t recall how expensive (or not) it was.

I recall a semi-humorous run-in l had with Red Star. This was in 1980 and two boxes of etchings were sent on the 17.25 Birmingham-Poole to arrive in Bournemouth at 21.20. I got to the station and was told the train was running around 20 minutes late, and that I’d be unable to get them that same day as they had to remain in the parcels office for a statutory 30 minutes after delivery.

I remonstrated that l needed to work on the contents over the weekend. He said no and that I’d have to return on Monday. I could see the parcels about two feet from where he was standing. Fortunately he left the office and l retrieved my property from behind the counter and hot footed it out to a taxi rank. He saw me and came running out shouting ‘you can’t do that’ to which l replied ‘l just did’ as I closed the door and we drove off.

Ah the good old days! Give me home delivery any time!

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you all for your comments and memories about parcels by train - and the particular V2 hauled train in that photo. Those personal memories are so important when considering the context of rail use today and that of half a century or more ago.

A loco we've seen in a recent post - see #3470 and #3539 - is Ivatt 4MT 2-6-0 43118 at Kentish Town. Probably 5th October 1962. It was at Cricklewood from November 1952 then went to Wellingborough on 6th October 1962. It moved to Stoke in October 1963, Lower Darwen in February 1965, Lostock Hall in March 1966 and finally Workington in April 1967 where it was withdrawn in November the same year. WHTS propose that it was scrapped at Campbell’s Airdrie, although verification is required and BR Database suggest the date of scrapping as March 1968.



Fowler 2-6-2T 40031 at Kentish Town, probably on 5th October 1962. The last of these three is 1st September 1962. It had been allocated to Kentish Town since July 1960 and was withdrawn at the beginning of December 1962. The SLS record it at Derby Works where it was observed on 18th February 1963 and BR Database gives a scrapping date of the same month







Jubilee 45573 Newfoundland, last seen in post #3470, at Kentish Town probably on 5th or 8th October 1962. Newfoundland was allocated to Holbeck Shed since at least 1946 and was withdrawn from there at the beginning of September 1965. It was scrapped at Clayton and Davie at Dunston on Tyne during January 1966.



Brian

 

[oldravendale]

V2 60821 at Haringay West on 25th August 1962. This had been a New England loco since December 1958 where it was withdrawn in December 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at Doncaster Works in May 1963. (BR Database). The wagon behind the loco might (or might not!) be of interest.



An A1 we've not seen in these photos previously is 60130 Kestrel here at Haringay West on 25th August 1962. It had been allocated to Copley Hill, Leeds since October 1957 and moved to Ardsley in September 1964 where it was withdrawn in October 1965. (SLS). The loco was sold for scrap in December 1965 to Cashmore’s, Great Bridge. (BR Database).



A4 60015 Quicksilver at Haringay West on 25th August 1962. This has been seen in post #2024. It was a Kings Cross engine from 1951 and was withdrawn from there towards the end of April 1963. (SLS). It went to Doncaster Works for disposal which was complete by the middle of May. (BR Database).



Brian

 

[76043]

The wagons are always interesting, LOL. It's a vanwide, which commenced building in 1961, but this one has the BR lifting link clasp brakegear. Paul Bartlett's photos do not show lifting link gear, but I don't have access to my books at the moment. I think the Red Panda chassis kit instructions may/probably do list a batch of vanwides with lifting link gear.

BR Vanwides - vacuum brake VWV VMV ZDV ZRV VEV

BR built 1894 Vanwides, another 100 with a clear polyester experimental roof and 6 with side ventilators as a fruit van. The collection includes some details. 7mm and 4mm kits are available. The airbraked conversions are at http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/vea

paulbartlett.zenfolio.com

It's also interesting for a newish wagon to be chalked all over and dirty, so it's been well used in it's infancy.
Tony

 

[AJC]

The wagons are always interesting, LOL. It's a vanwide, which commenced building in 1961, but this one has the BR lifting link clasp brakegear. Paul Bartlett's photos do not show lifting link gear, but I don't have access to my books at the moment. I think the Red Panda chassis kit instructions may/probably do list a batch of vanwides with lifting link gear.

BR Vanwides - vacuum brake VWV VMV ZDV ZRV VEV

BR built 1894 Vanwides, another 100 with a clear polyester experimental roof and 6 with side ventilators as a fruit van. The collection includes some details. 7mm and 4mm kits are available. The airbraked conversions are at http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/vea

paulbartlett.zenfolio.com

It's also interesting for a newish wagon to be chalked all over and dirty, so it's been well used in it's infancy.
Tony

I didn't know of that Vanwide variation, but a quick glance at Davie Larkin's Wagons of the Final Years of British Railways, A Pictorial Study of the 1962-1968 period tells me that B778392 was the last of six prototypes converted from a standard van (dia. 1/213, a ply-sheeted vehicle built at Wolverton in 1959 of lot 3228) and was unique in having this form of brake. All the other prototypes had Morton gear. Niche wagonry!

Adam

 

[djparkins]

Niche wagonry!

Adam

Nice! Cool!

 

[AJC]

Nice! Cool!

Absolutely!

Adam

 

[76043]

I didn't know of that Vanwide variation, but a quick glance at Davie Larkin's Wagons of the Final Years of British Railways, A Pictorial Study of the 1962-1968 period tells me that B778392 was the last of six prototypes converted from a standard van (dia. 1/213, a ply-sheeted vehicle built at Wolverton in 1959 of lot 3228) and was unique in having this form of brake. All the other prototypes had Morton gear. Niche wagonry!

Adam

That's interesting Adam. I've just seen you saw that the number was chalked on the side in the shot, and did the research. I didn't notice this, lucky for us that it's there, proving that this is actually a rare wagon indeed, one in a million if Don Rowland can be kind of paraphrased.
Cheers
Tony

 

[AJC]

That's interesting Adam. I've just seen you saw that the number was chalked on the side in the shot, and did the research. I didn't notice this, lucky for us that it's there, proving that this is actually a rare wagon indeed, one in a million if Don Rowland can be kind of paraphrased.
Cheers
Tony

You'd spotted the brakegear, I'd have stumbled across the uniqueness sooner or later, but the chalked number confirms it! Dare I make yet another Vanwide? I'd sworn not to...

Adam

 

[76043]

You'd spotted the brakegear, I'd have stumbled across the uniqueness sooner or later, but the chalked number confirms it! Dare I make yet another Vanwide? I'd sworn not to...

Adam

Well Adam, seems like it would be rude not to now we have photo evidence of it. It's too new for me as my wagon building is stuck in the fifties. Although I was planning on an early 70's train so could be plausible for me as I have a spare lifting link chassis....
Tony

 

[oldravendale]

Adam, Tony and David. Thank you for your info about the wagon, and to David for is positive comment! This is exactly what Tim wanted his photos to try to help in showing details which otherwise will just slip away.

Seen previously in post #2739 is A2 60526 Sugar Palm here at Haringay West on 25th August 1962. It had been a York North engine since October 1948 and was withdrawn in November 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at Doncaster Works in April 1963. (BR Database).



A1 60149 Amadis at Haringay West on 25th August 1962. It had been allocated to Doncaster since October 1958 where it was withdrawn in June 1964 (SLS), going to Cox and Danks at Wadsley Bridge to which it had been sold for scrap in January 1965.



A1 60139 Sea Eagle, also at Haringay West on 25th August 1962. This loco flollowed a similar career to 60149 above, being allocated to Doncaster in April 1959, withdrawn in June 1964. It was also sold to Cox and Danks at Wadsley Bridge to which it had been sold for scrap in January 1965.



Brian