Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[Roger Pound]

I have just been looking at the Fowler 2P 2-6-2T at Kentish Town in #3571 and reflecting on my early spotting days in Leicester. At that time a Nuneaton allocated Fowler2-6-2T, No. 5 (LMSR numbering - I'm that old......!), was a regular performer on the Leicester-Nuneaton (Trent Valley) shuttle. Post nationalisation the loco disappeared to Shrewsbury where I believe it remained until withdrawn. However, I digress. Can anyone confirm that these locos were known as 'Bread Vans' , which nick-name was bestowed upon them more in the London area from my understanding ? Just and old guy's curiosity if anyone would be kind enough to humour me.....

Thanks,

Roger.

 

[oldravendale]

I have just been looking at the Fowler 2P 2-6-2T at Kentish Town in #3571 and reflecting on my early spotting days in Leicester. At that time a Nuneaton allocated Fowler2-6-2T, No. 5 (LMSR numbering - I'm that old......!), was a regular performer on the Leicester-Nuneaton (Trent Valley) shuttle. Post nationalisation the loco disappeared to Shrewsbury where I believe it remained until withdrawn. However, I digress. Can anyone confirm that these locos were known as 'Bread Vans' , which nick-name was bestowed upon them more in the London area from my understanding ? Just and old guy's curiosity if anyone would be kind enough to humour me.....

Thanks,

Roger.

Thanks for yours, Roger. I'm pretty sure you are correct although where the nickname came from I'm uncertain.

Britannia 70036 Boadica (or should that be Boadicea?) at Haringay West on 25th August 1962. It was last in post #1815 and had been at Immingham since October 1961. The final shed was Carlisle Kingmoor and it was withdrawn from there in October 1966 (SLS), going to Motherwell Machinery and Scrap at Wishaw where it was broken up in January 1967. (BR Database).



Standard Class 4 2-6-0 76041 at Kentish Town on 1st September 1962. The loco had been allocated to Cricklewood since June 1962, then to Willesden in January 1965 and finally Oxley in October the same year where it was withdrawn in April 1967. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cohen’s, Kettering, in October 1967. (BR Database).



This loco was last in post #3539. It’s Fowler 2-6-2T 40026 at Kentish Town on 1st September 1962. It was allocated to Kentish Town in May 1962 and withdrawn the following December. (SLS). It spent a period in store at Cricklewood where it was recorded in October (WHTS) before being recorded at Derby Works by the SLS. BR Database advise it was scrapped in April 1963 so it's reasonable to assume the deed was done at Derby.





Brian

 

[Osgood]

Many (most?) of these shed views are delightful Brian - the light, the shadows, the gloom, the dirt.....

 

[LarryG]

The Fowler Class 3 2-6-2T's were indeed known as 'Breadvans'. I thought it was merely a name used by the men at Lees 26F, so it is interesting ot see the London crews used that nickname. Jim Davenport worked in the offices at Lees before moving to Crewe and told me the name came about becasue of their very hot cabs.

 

[Roger Pound]

The Fowler Class 3 2-6-2T's were indeed known as 'Breadvans'. I thought it was merely a name used by the men at Lees 26F, so it is interesting ot see the London crews used that nickname. Jim Davenport worked in the offices at Lees before moving to Crewe and told me the name came about becasue of their very hot cabs.

Much obliged for confirmation, Brian and for the extra information, Larry.

Roger

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks for your continuing enthusiasm, Tony. I agree - those shed scenes at Kentish Town capture the shed just as I remember it. It was always a place of real character. Tim did us proud with those photos.

Breadvans - I seem to remember that you've mentioned this nickname previously, Larry, and I should have been less lazy and checked! The name may have been regional - I don't remember them ever being called breadvans at the London sheds but it's always possible that the crews did so.

The first of these photos is a pair of Jubilees, 45557 New Brunswick and 45594 Bhopal at Kentish Town on 1st September 1962. 45557 was last in post #3386. It was allocated to Burton in December 1961 and moved to Derby in July 1964 where was withdrawn in September the same year. (SLS). It was disposed of in December 1964 at Cashmore’s, Great Bridge. (BR Database).

45594 was allocated to Canklow in January 1962 and then Sheffield Darnall in June where it was withdrawn in December. (SLS). It was recorded in Crewe Works in July and August 1963 (WHTS) and BR Database reports it as scrapped in August.



The final three are all of 45557.







Princess Coronation 46221 Queen Elizabeth on a down Perth train south of Tring Station on 28th July 1962. It was allocated to Carlisle Upperby in May 1962 and withdrawn in May 1963. The Railway Observer reported it at Crewe Works after a failure at Camden. It was scrapped in July 1963. In my opinion the main subject here is the photographer in the foreground (I believe it's probably Tim's brother-in-law) with the happy positioning of the telegraph pole, signal box and train. That signal on the left could possibly be better framed out of the photo and the extraneous bits of telegraph pole around the subject's head would improve the scene if painted out. And yes, we did wear business suits when out photographing trains or wandering around sheds! Note the yard, now a car park, jammed full of mineral wagons.



Another Princess Coronation, this time 46225 Duchess of Gloucester, on a down relief to Liverpool south of Tring Station on 28th July 1962. I was particularly delighted to find this series of photos as Tring is my local – or at least nearest – station. It remains recognisable due to the presence of the buildings which remain, although as mentioned above the goods yard is now the inevitable car park. 46225 has appeared in these pages a few times previously. It was a Carlisle Upperby engine at the time and had been allocated there since July 1959, being withdrawn in September 1964 (SLS) going to Arnott Young at Troon where it was scrapped in the following December. (BR Database).



Brian

 

[Genghis]

Fabulous detail shots for the more gifted modellers!

 

[oldravendale]

I agree, Dave, those detail shots are crackers.

… and the cry went up “not another Black 5!…” How we’d love to see that now. However, this is 44836 on a down extra south of Tring on 28th July 1962. It had been allocated to Rugby since at least June 1948, moving to Crewe South in May 1965, then Stockport Edgeley in September the same year where it was withdrawn in May 1968. (SLS). It then went to Ward’s, Beighton, Sheffield (RO) where it was reported on 17th September 1968 (WHTS) and scrapped the same month. (BR Database).



Britannia 70028 Royal Star on a down special to Walsall south of Tring Station on 28th June 1962. By this time it was allocated to Longsight and had been there since March 1962 although as it was allocated to Aston two days after the photo it’s quite possible it was already based there as the date of transfer is week ending. It went to Willesden in June 1963, Crewe North in October 1963, Crewe South June 1965, Llandudno Junction March 1966 and back to Crewe South two months latr finally ending up at Carlisle Kingmoor in October 1966 where it was withdrawn in September 1967. (SLS). It went to J McWilliams, Shettleston where it was scrapped in January 1968. (BR Database).



Jubilee 45555 Quebec on an up Birmingham train of at least eleven vehicles at Tring Station on 28th July 1962. It was a Carlisle Upperby loco from late November 1959 moving to Crewe South in February 1961. (SLS). It was withdrawn in August 1963. It was seen in Crewe Works by the Railway Observer in July 1963 so a scrapping date of September 1963 (BR Database) is not unreasonable. Look at all those train spotters! And the porter on the track lifting parcels on to the platform - and those are the fast lines! How times have changed. The "new" pedestrian bridge is being built - now replaced just last year. The cottages on the left still exist although now fairly well protected from the railway by shrubs and trees. The bay is long gone. The current booking office is approximately where the tallest tree is on the left of frame.



Brian

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

The nice thing about the last Tring photo are the two porters. One standing in the tracks leaning against the horizontal crate and the other leaning on the vertical crate on the platform. Are they ready to carry them across the fast lines to the other platform.....?

 

[oldravendale]

Yes, a good question, @Yorkshire Dave. It's another example of something that just wouldn't be allowed now. And probably just as well! (Good to see you and @Dog Star today to talk about these pictures along with a few others from WT.)

Help Larry! BR Database calls this class the “Lobster”, a title I’ve never heard previously. As far as I’m concerned they were Stanier 2-6-0s, or at a stretch Stanier Crabs which was not an appropriate description as far as I was concerned. In this case 42972 is viewed from the train, probably between Tring and Euston, certainly north of Watford as the absence of the DC electric tracks confirms, on 28th July 1962. It had belonged to Crewe South since April 1948, then to Stoke in December 1962, Bescot in March 1963 and Gorton in January 1965 where it was withdrawn in April the same year. BR Database report the loco as scrapped in August 1965 although the Railway Observer advises it was reported at Hayes, Bridgend in September.



Class 4MT 2-6-0 43021 in Berkhamsted sidings on 28th July 1962. I’m trying to settle in my own mind exactly where this was but I believe this is now a Builders Merchants yard. The loco was allocated to Watford in June 1962, Stoke in April 1965 and finally Crewe South in June 1967where it was withdrawn in the following September. (SLS). It was scrapped at Ward’s Killamarsh, Sheffield in December 1967 according to Ward’s records. (WHTS). BR Database agree with the month of scrapping.



Royal Scot 46111 Royal Fusilier on a down Birmingham train near and north of Watford on 28th July 1962. We saw this loco quite recently, in post #3471 and before that in #1752. It was allocated to Willesden in July 1961 and was one of that sorry number moving to Annesley in February 1963. It was withdrawn in September. (SLS). It went to Crewe (WHTS) where it was scrapped in November 1963. (BR Database). It was observed within the works in October. (WHTS).



Brian

 

[oldravendale]

Two here of Royal Scot 46111 Royal Fusilier light engine near Camden MPD on 28th July 1962. We saw this loco quite recently, in post #3471 and before that in #1752. It was allocated to Willesden in July 1961 and was one of that sorry number moving to Annesley in February 1963. It was withdrawn in September. (SLS). It went to Crewe (WHTS) where it was scrapped in November 1963. (BR Database). It was observed within the works in October. (WHTS).





Two views here from the train entering Euston on 28th July 1962. In the second shot the catenary can be seen to be already in place.





Princess Coronation 46239 City of Chester which was a Camden engine from at least 1948 until September 1963 when it moved to Holyhead, then Willesden a month later and finally Crewe North in September 1964 before withdrawal within the month. (SLS). It went to Cashmore's Great Bridge for disposal which was complete by the end of December (BR Database). The SLS agrees with these dates in approximate terms.

In this shot it's on an up Glasgow train in Tring Cutting although it's previously been seen in post #1349 and others.



Brian

 

[simond]

Rabbit hole alert.

I didn’t know what a Fusilier did, let alone why there should be Royal ones.
They were soldiers armed with “Fusils”, apparently a light musket / flintlock sort of thing.

so there, that’ll help in the next pub quiz.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Class 4MT 2-6-0 43021 in Berkhamsted sidings on 28th July 1962. I’m trying to settle in my own mind exactly where this was but I believe this is now a Builders Merchants yard. The loco was allocated to Watford in June 1962, Stoke in April 1965 and finally Crewe South in June 1967where it was withdrawn in the following September. (SLS). It was scrapped at Ward’s Killamarsh, Sheffield in December 1967 according to Ward’s records. (WHTS). BR Database agree with the month of scrapping.

I'm not too sure it's Berko. Although there were works on the fast line side (Billet Lane) the houses are too close to the line as there were the fast lines, the works the canal and then the houses. This is an annotated extract of the NLS OS 1:10,000 1949-73 map to illustrate.



I think it is actually the entrance to Hemel Hempstead & Boxmoor goods yard. The houses appear to be in Stratford Way which runs parallel to the railway.

This is an annotated NLS extract (same 1:10,000 1949-73 as above). Bearing in mind the railway yard could have been extended as it is a 1949 map.



The roof of the houses with the chimneys on the rail side in Tim's photo are similar to those on Stratford Way (looking south) and close enough to the railway. In the street view (some houses have been extended altering the roof line) below the gates on the right open onto railway property. I've also re-posted Tim's image for a direct comparison without srcolling - which I assume he had taken the photo from the slow train.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Help Larry! BR Database calls this class the “Lobster”, a title I’ve never heard previously. As far as I’m concerned they were Stanier 2-6-0s, or at a stretch Stanier Crabs which was not an appropriate description as far as I was concerned. In this case 42972 is viewed from the train, probably between Tring and Euston, certainly north of Watford as the absence of the DC electric tracks confirms, on 28th July 1962. It had belonged to Crewe South since April 1948, then to Stoke in December 1962, Bescot in March 1963 and Gorton in January 1965 where it was withdrawn in April the same year. BR Database report the loco as scrapped in August 1965 although the Railway Observer advises it was reported at Hayes, Bridgend in September.

The houses in the background are on Ellesmere Road Berkhamsted. The houses on the right appear to match those on street view - the windows look similar although the roof divisions have altered - the array of chimneys remain. The railway is on the left in the cutting.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

oyal Scot 46111 Royal Fusilier on a down Birmingham train near and north of Watford on 28th July 1962. We saw this loco quite recently, in post #3471 and before that in #1752. It was allocated to Willesden in July 1961 and was one of that sorry number moving to Annesley in February 1963. It was withdrawn in September. (SLS). It went to Crewe (WHTS) where it was scrapped in November 1963. (BR Database). It was observed within the works in October. (WHTS).

I believe this one is just north of Kings Langley station looking south. The Bridge is over Egg Farm Lane (to the Ovaltine Egg Farm) and the house is on Station Road. Behind the factory between the A41 and the canal was Home Park Mill - part of John Dickinson Group. The factory in the picture on this side of the old A41 may have belonged to them but it is difficult comparing it to today as so much has changed. Egg Farm Lane Bridge is circled in green. Again a NLS extract from the 1:10,000 1949-73 series.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Princess Coronation 46239 City of Chester which was a Camden engine from at least 1948 until September 1963 when it moved to Holyhead, then Willesden a month later and finally Crewe North in September 1964 before withdrawal within the month. (SLS). It went to Cashmore's Great Bridge for disposal which was complete by the end of December (BR Database). The SLS agrees with these dates in approximate terms.

In this shot it's on an up Glasgow train in Tring Cutting although it's previously been seen in post #1349 and others.

The bridge in the background is Folly Bridge. This carries the B488 Upper Icknield Way between Bulbourne and the old Pitstone chalk quarries.

 

[Arun Sharma]

Regarding the pics of 40026, I assume the 'contraption' by the smokebox on the running plate is the Fowler version of the GWR's Weir Pump. It does look rather less tidy than the variety found on say, the 97xx panniers.

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you @simond for your info about Fusiliers.... I thought everyone knew that.

Dave. Once again I'm in your debt. How I misidentified the alleged Berkhamsted picture is hard to explain - the builders yard to which I referred is actually on the fast side. All your info about those three photos is safely gathered in. I should most certainly have recognised Folly Bridge - we very nearly bought Folly Farm house a few years ago.

@Arun Sharma - I hope someone will be along to answer your question - I'm in no position to do so.

Now preserved Royal Scot 4-6-0 Scots Guardsman on an up Liverpool train in Tring Cutting on 28th July 1962. At this time home shed was Longsight and had been since August 1961. It went from there to Springs Branch (Wigan) in June 1964, Carlisle Upperby in August and Carlisle Kingmoor in November – all in the same year where it was withdrawn in January 1966. (SLS). I understand it was bought direct from BR and moved initially to the KWVR but is now based at Carnforth in running condition. (46115 Scots Guardsman (LMS 6115 & BR 46115))



Jubilee 45613 Kenya on a down Glasgow Extra at Tring Cutting on 28th July 1962. It moved to Carnforth from Crewe North in May 1962 and thence to Carlisle Kingmoor in July 1963 where it was withdrawn in September 1964. (SLS). It was scrapped at Arnott Young, Troon, in April 1965. (BR Database).



A Gorilla at Tring Station and again the deliberate inclusion of the photographer suggests that the earlier photo was also planned… Caprotti Black 5 44752 which we’ve seen previously at Willesden Shed in post #1239. It was new to Longsight in March 1948 and spent some time in early February 949 with the CME at Rugby which strongly suggests it was indergoing a test programme. It returned to Longsight later the same month and moved to Stockport Edgeley in July 1961 where it was withdrawn in April 1964. (SLS). Although verification is required WHTS advises it was scrapped at Crewe Works and BR Database gives the date as June 1964.



Brian

 

[Martin Shaw]

Regarding the pics of 40026, I assume the 'contraption' by the smokebox on the running plate is the Fowler version of the GWR's Weir Pump. It does look rather less tidy than the variety found on say, the 97xx panniers.

Quite correct Arun although not a Fowler version nor was there a GWR variant, but both railways used boiler feed pumps made by G & J Weir at the Holm Foundry, Cathcart established in 1886 on a then green field site. They of course made their money with pumps of all types for the marine trade rather than railways. The site and company is now owned by Celeros Flow Technology of Charlotte, North Carolina however they do still make pumps in Glasgow which is a matter of some pride and they won Company of the Year at the the Scottish Engineering awards 2024. We can still just about do engineering.
Martin

 

[LarryG]

I never heard the Stanier 2-6-0s referred to as 'Lobsters', but I believe nicknames differed across Britain.