Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[Barry37]

That's interesting Adam. I've just seen you saw that the number was chalked on the side in the shot, and did the research. I didn't notice this, lucky for us that it's there, proving that this is actually a rare wagon indeed, one in a million if Don Rowland can be kind of paraphrased.
Cheers
Tony

A number of these wagons were fitted with air brakes, and became VEAs. They were used for MoD traffic (perhaps not exclusively), as they were more suited to the tight curves found in some Mod/RoF sites.
This is one passing through Severn Tunnel Jct. about 1983, possibly going to/from Glascoed or Caerwent. This, like the vacuum-fitted vans, has the (TOPS) number panel on the LH door*, and where it would normally be, has suffered damage to the paintwork, revealing the earlier livery. It's difficult to think of a reason why all of a van's number would need to be chalked on.
* so the wagon number could be seen when the doors were open, I assume.
Some Tube wagons were similarly upgraded, becoming ODAs.

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks for clarifying the Weir pump question, Martin. And also thanks to Larry. Yes, "Lobsters" was a new one on me as well, or maybe some wit in one of the MPDs thought "well, we have crabs, so why not lobsters as well?")

More info about that rare wagon as well for which thanks, Barry. That's building in to quite a file.

Royal Scot 46134 The Cheshire Regiment on a down Manchester train at Tring Station on 28th July 1962. Judging by the number of spotters sitting on that wall most of the school age male population of Tring must have been enthusiasts at the time. Most recently this loco was in post #2526 and before that in post #1736. It was an Edge Hill engine finally being allocated to Carlisle Upperby in June 1962 and withdrawn from there at the beginning of December 1962. It was seen in the scrap road at Crewe Works in April 1963 (SLS) where it was scrapped by the end of the month. (Rail UK).



Black 5 45312 on an up van train at Tring Cutting on 28th July 1962. This was a loco that moved around a lot! It had been at Speke Junction since January 1960, moving to Edge Hill in July 1963, Warrington Dallam in March 1966, Stockport Edgeley in October 1967 and finally Bolton in May 1968 where it was withdrawn a little over a month later. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cohen's, Kettering in February 1969. (BR Database).



A new Brit to the fold - we've not seen this one previously. 70042 Lord Roberts on an up extra at Tring Cutting on 28th July 1962. At the time it was allocated to Willesden and had been there since February 1961 although it was loaned to Willesden from the end of 1960 by Trafford Park. It moved to Crewe North in June 1963, Crewe South in June 1965, Holyhead in July 1965 and finally Carlisle Kingmoor in January 1966 where it was withdrawn in May 1967. It was scrapped at J McWilliams, Shettleston in October 1967.



Brian

 

[Arun Sharma]

A number of these wagons were fitted with air brakes, and became VEAs. They were used for MoD traffic (perhaps not exclusively), as they were more suited to the tight curves found in some Mod/RoF sites.
This is one passing through Severn Tunnel Jct. about 1983, possibly going to/from Glascoed or Caerwent. This, like the vacuum-fitted vans, has the (TOPS) number panel on the LH door*, and where it would normally be, has suffered damage to the paintwork, revealing the earlier livery. It's difficult to think of a reason why all of a van's number would need to be chalked on.
* so the wagon number could be seen when the doors were open, I assume.
Some Tube wagons were similarly upgraded, becoming ODAs.
View attachment 216498

On the door panel adjacent to the one with the VEA marking are the remains of two [originally] diamond warning labels. These are UN derived labels indicating explosive cargos which you would normally expect to see on MoD traffic. Used to be very common to see these at Didcot on Bicester-bound VGAs

 

[oldravendale]

More about the van for which I thank you, Arun.

Today continues the Tring Cutting story.

img2923 TM Neg Strip 70 45613 down Glasgow Extra Tring Cutting 28 Jul 62 Final

The notes say this is Jubilee 45613 Kenya which it patently isn't! I read this as Black 5 45232 in Tring Cutting on 28th July 1962. It had been at Newton Heath since at least January 1948 (BR Database) moving to Bolton in December 1962, Warrington Dallam in March 1966, Birkenhead Mollington Street in December the same year and withdrawal in November 1967. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore's. Great Bridge, in March 1968.



Royal Scot 46125 3rd Carabinier seen on a down Perth train at Tring Cutting on 28th July 1962. This has been in post #1333 previously. It went to Carlisle Upperby in May 1962, Crewe North in June and Holyhead in October, all the same year. In March 1963 it moved again to Crewe North, back to Holyhead in May, Willesden in July and Annesley in October where it was withdrawn in October 1964. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore's, Great Bridge, in January 1965. (BR Database).


Britannia 70021 Morning Star reversing empty stock at Tring Cutting on 28th July 1962. This was allocated to Aston in March 1962 (BR Database), then Willesden in March 1962, Crewe North in January 1965, Crewe South in June and Newton Heath in August, all the same year, Stockport Edgeley in June 1966 and Carlisle Kingmoor in July 1967 where it was withdrawn the following December. (SLS). It was scrapped at T W Ward, Inverkeithing, in April 1968. (BR Database).



Brian

 

[Barry37]

On the door panel adjacent to the one with the VEA marking are the remains of two [originally] diamond warning labels. These are UN derived labels indicating explosive cargos which you would normally expect to see on MoD traffic. Used to be very common to see these at Didcot on Bicester-bound VGAs

A VGA and OCA in this train had signs of diamond labels. Not the ODA, though. It was a very mixed consist, including one of the two(?) primrose/brown Taunton Cider bogie vans.

 

[Arun Sharma]

A VGA and OCA in this train had signs of diamond labels. Not the ODA, though. It was a very mixed consist, including one of the two(?) primrose/brown Taunton Cider bogie vans.

Barry - Off-topic I know, but did you get any pics of the Taunton Cider vans? - I wasn't aware of their existence.

 

[AJC]

Barry - Off-topic I know, but did you get any pics of the Taunton Cider vans? - I wasn't aware of their existence.

There's a few (of one vehicle, not sure how many there were), in here:

German 2 door Cargowaggon Danzas van diag E512

Danzas introduced 120 Cargowaggon bogie vans in 1979 - 80 specifically for traffic between Britain and the Continent. Includes Taunton Cider

paulbartlett.zenfolio.com

Adam

 

[Arun Sharma]

There's a few (of one vehicle, not sure how many there were), in here:

German 2 door Cargowaggon Danzas van diag E512

Danzas introduced 120 Cargowaggon bogie vans in 1979 - 80 specifically for traffic between Britain and the Continent. Includes Taunton Cider

paulbartlett.zenfolio.com

Adam

Thank you Adam - Very distinctive vehicles with their "A" end frames and the clerestory roof.

 

[daifly]

There's a few (of one vehicle, not sure how many there were), in here:

This article suggests that there were two.

PressReader.com - Digital Newspaper & Magazine Subscriptions

Digital newsstand featuring 7000+ of the world’s most popular newspapers & magazines. Enjoy unlimited reading on up to 5 devices with 7-day free trial.

www.pressreader.com

Dave

 

[Barry37]

Barry - Off-topic I know, but did you get any pics of the Taunton Cider vans? - I wasn't aware of their existence.

I took two, but the other one only shows part of the Taunton Cider van. To the right of the van, are an SPA and an OCA, which appear to be in engineers' use, coded ZAA Pike, and ZDA Bass. Beyond, is the train with the VEA (to the left of the more distant lighting tower). Just above the LH end of the Taunton Cider van, is the ODA I mentioned earlier.
How busy it was then! And Taunton Cider was still being made in Taunton.

 

[Arun Sharma]

I took two, but the other one only shows part of the Taunton Cider van. To the right of the van, are an SPA and an OCA, which appear to be in engineers' use, coded ZAA Pike, and ZDA Bass. Beyond, is the train with the VEA (to the left of the more distant lighting tower). Just above the LH end of the Taunton Cider van, is the ODA I mentioned earlier.
How busy it was then! And Taunton Cider was still being made in Taunton.

View attachment 216649

Thank you

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you all for continuing the information about the wagons. That's all much appreciated and added to the details, even if rather peripheral to the initial discussion. Thanks too for those I met at Railex, Aylesbury and at the GOG Kempton Park Show who commented so kindly about these photos.

Apologies too for the delay in bringing new pictures to this thread. I've been updating files and putting up fencing - don't ask.

Initially I'm referring back to the images of 45232 and 46125 in post #3604. In the background of both photos is Tring Station, seen under the bridge which is still present. So is the Royal Hotel, the large building just behind the bridge which is now apartments. Tring Station is closer to Aldbury than Tring and a small settlement called Tring Station has grown up in the vicinity of the Station. If this is a rabbit hole worth investigating I suggest you can do little better than look at this as a starter: THE RAILWAY COMES TO TRING

For today we'll continue with more around Tring Cutting.

Royal Scot 46154 The Hussar on a down Morecambe and Whitehaven train in Tring Cutting on 28th July 1962. The loco was allocated to Willesden from June 1962 and withdrawn at the beginning of December the same year. (SLS). It went to Crewe Works for disposal (WHTS) which was completed by mid March 1963. (BR Database).



Black 5 45134 on an up special in Tring Cutting on 28th July 1962. In January 1962 the loco was allocated to Northampton, in October 1965 Tyseley, in September 1966 it went to Shrewsbury and finally Carnforth in December the same year where it was withdrawn in August 1968. (SLS). Scrapping followed at Cohen's, Kettering, in January 1969. (BR Database).



Rebuilt Patriot 45531 Sir Frederick Harrison on a down Manchester train at Tring Cutting on 28th July 1962. This loco has previously been seen in post #2567. At the time of this photo it was an Edge Hill engine, moving to Springs Branch, Carlisle Upperby and finally Kingmoor in October 1964 where it was withdrawn a year later. (SLS). It was scrapped at Campbells, Airdrie, by he end of January 1966. (Rail UK).



Brian

 

[oldravendale]

We've not escaped Tring Cutting yet!

Black 5 44686 on a Manchester to Hastings train at Tring Cutting on 28th July 1962. The loco was allocated to Llandudno Junction in May 1960, ten Southport in October 1963 where it was withdrawn in October 1965. (SLS). The Railway Observer reported it at Ward's. Beighton, Sheffield and BR Database that it was cut up in September 1967.



Black 5 45001 at Tring Cutting on a down Brighton train on 28th July 1962. This had been at Crewe South since November 1959 making several moves thereafter. These were Crewe North July 1964, back to Crewe South October 1964, Rugby December 1964, Nuneaton June 1965, Holyhead June 1966 and finally Carnforth in December 1966 where it was withdrawn in March 1968. (SLS). It was reported by the RO as cut up at Draper's, Hull on 24th June 1968.



Britannia 70032 Tennyson on the down Welshman at Tring Cutting on 28th July 1962. This was last in post #706. It was allocated to Willesden in February 1961, then Carlisle Kingmoor in October 1964, Upperby in November and back to Kingmoor in December 1966 where it was withdrawn in September 1967. (SLS). This is another loco with a very specific scrapping date, given by BR Database as 1st February 1968 at J McWiliams, Shettleston.



Brian

 

[LarryG]

The final Caprotti Black Fives certainly got around and belied the fact that there were only two of them! I'm sure everyone saw one at some time or another.

 

[Genghis]

The final Caprotti Black Fives certainly got around and belied the fact that there were only two of them! I'm sure everyone saw one at some time or another.

I wish I did! Fine looking machines.

I am sure I read somewhere that they were really Black 6's - just a bit better than the others.

David

 

[michael mott]

I agree, Dave, those detail shots are crackers.

… and the cry went up “not another Black 5!…” How we’d love to see that now. However, this is 44836 on a down extra south of Tring on 28th July 1962. It had been allocated to Rugby since at least June 1948, moving to Crewe South in May 1965, then Stockport Edgeley in September the same year where it was withdrawn in May 1968. (SLS). It then went to Ward’s, Beighton, Sheffield (RO) where it was reported on 17th September 1968 (WHTS) and scrapped the same month. (BR Database).

View attachment 216138

Britannia 70028 Royal Star on a down special to Walsall south of Tring Station on 28th June 1962. By this time it was allocated to Longsight and had been there since March 1962 although as it was allocated to Aston two days after the photo it’s quite possible it was already based there as the date of transfer is week ending. It went to Willesden in June 1963, Crewe North in October 1963, Crewe South June 1965, Llandudno Junction March 1966 and back to Crewe South two months latr finally ending up at Carlisle Kingmoor in October 1966 where it was withdrawn in September 1967. (SLS). It went to J McWilliams, Shettleston where it was scrapped in January 1968. (BR Database).

View attachment 216139

Jubilee 45555 Quebec on an up Birmingham train of at least eleven vehicles at Tring Station on 28th July 1962. It was a Carlisle Upperby loco from late November 1959 moving to Crewe South in February 1961. (SLS). It was withdrawn in August 1963. It was seen in Crewe Works by the Railway Observer in July 1963 so a scrapping date of September 1963 (BR Database) is not unreasonable. Look at all those train spotters! And the porter on the track lifting parcels on to the platform - and those are the fast lines! How times have changed. The "new" pedestrian bridge is being built - now replaced just last year. The cottages on the left still exist although now fairly well protected from the railway by shrubs and trees. The bay is long gone. The current booking office is approximately where the tallest tree is on the left of frame.

View attachment 216140

Brian

What I like about this picture is all the boys sitting on the wall possibly train spotting and their bikes leaning against the pole. Brings back early memories at Acton.
Michael

 

[1BCamden]

Two here of Royal Scot 46111 Royal Fusilier light engine near Camden MPD on 28th July 1962. We saw this loco quite recently, in post #3471 and before that in #1752. It was allocated to Willesden in July 1961 and was one of that sorry number moving to Annesley in February 1963. It was withdrawn in September. (SLS). It went to Crewe (WHTS) where it was scrapped in November 1963. (BR Database). It was observed within the works in October. (WHTS).

View attachment 216223

View attachment 216224

Two views here from the train entering Euston on 28th July 1962. In the second shot the catenary can be seen to be already in place.

View attachment 216225

View attachment 216226

Princess Coronation 46239 City of Chester which was a Camden engine from at least 1948 until September 1963 when it moved to Holyhead, then Willesden a month later and finally Crewe North in September 1964 before withdrawal within the month. (SLS). It went to Cashmore's Great Bridge for disposal which was complete by the end of December (BR Database). The SLS agrees with these dates in approximate terms.

In this shot it's on an up Glasgow train in Tring Cutting although it's previously been seen in post #1349 and others.

View attachment 216227

Brian

Hi Brian, great Camden photos, the first two featuring 6111 are amazing, showing the engine backing off the ash plant before taking one of the south (town) end shed roads.
The third photo is very rare, as it shows a down express rounding the bend prior to entering the Primrose Hill tunnel on the down fast line, but importantly it shows the catch point arrangement to protect the down fast from light engine movements from Camden MPD heading over to the North London Lines and Camden Goods Station.
The fourth photo I cannot place, it is not however a up line into Euston.
Best regards

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks so much for this last set of comments.

Larry - I believe there were actually twenty Caprotti Black 5s, although probably only two "Gorillas" (please update me with details). At the minimum I remember a pair with low footplates. One way and another they all looked different.

David @Genghis I believe you are absolutely correct. I suspect the Caprotti Black Fives were one of those designs which would have been developed in to a superior version of an already outstanding design.

Michael @michael mott - that photo - in fact the whole series - shows how important train spotting was as entertainment for the kids of the time. However I only remember it as being entertainment for the male members of the family! Many of our daughters are now in to the railway hobby - my own daughter will be joining me for a tour of Baker Street Station a little later this year.

@1BCamden - smashing comments so thank you. I find it interesting nowadays to identify the buildings from the steam age still in existence and in use. Tim had a skill which I lack in being able to take really good photos from a moving train - although in fairness many of them were less than perfect! Thank you for identifying the location of the third photo. That catch point makes perfect sense although I'd not want to be out of control and facing that wall! As for the fourth - well, it was the next in the sequence and Tim identified it as on the way to Euston so I'm at sea about that one.

We're getting to the end of the sequence at Tring.

A rather lovely panning shot of 8F 2-8-0 48518 on a down freight train at Tring Cutting on 28th July 1962. It had been a Willesden engine since the end of 1950 and moved to Croes Newydd in December 1964 and back to Willesden in March 1965 where it was withdrawn in July 1965. (SLS). It went to Woodham’s Barry in October 1965 and was one of the final “Barry Ten” to leave the yard when it closed. Although not preserved complete it has donated various components to several projects. See 48518 (LMS 8518 & BR 48518) I personally saw and photographed this loco at Willesden Shed in 1965 and at Barry in 1968.



Princess Coronation 46250 City of Lichfield on a down Llandudno train at Tring Cutting on 28th July 1962. This was last seen at Euston in post #2794. This loco had been allocated to Carlisle Upperby since June 1958 and was withdrawn in September 1964. (SLS). It ended up at Arnott Young, Troon, where it was scrapped in December the same year. (BR Database). The thing that impresses me more than anything else about these pictures of the "Coros" is the sizes of the trains they hauled! I make this 13 or perhaps even 14 bogie vehicles and this was entirely normal as shown in the next photo. I remember visiting an aunt in New Milton and the Merchant Navy hauled train "pulling up" at the station so that the end coaches could reach the platform. In these days of fixed formats of eight vehicles, or perhaps twelve for some of the recently extended suburban services such prodigious hauling power is probably recognised by but a few of us.



The subject of several previous posts Princess Coronation 46228 Duchess of Rutland is here on the up Shamrock at Tring Cutting on 28th July 1962. It had been allocated to Crewe North since July 1959 and was withdrawn from there in September 1964 (SLS) going to Cashmore’s, Great Bridge, where it was scrapped in December the same year. (BR Database).



Brian

 

[Dave Holt]

Brian.
There were 20 locos built with an inside drive shaft to the Caprotti valves and which had a low running plate and splashers over the couples wheels. The locos were considered (probably unfairly) to be rather weak but very free running on level track. This impression stemmed from excessive cylinder clearance volume, the sharper chimney bark at shorter cut-offs and a mistake with the cut-off graduations on the reverser scale in the cab.
Locos 44748 to 757 had sharp bends in the outside steam pipes, earning the gorilla nickname. Later locos, 44738 to 47 had straighter steam pipes. Some of the earlier locos later acquired the straighter type and thus ceased to be "gorillas". Later, two locos, 44686 & 7 were built with much improved cylinders and external drive shafts to the valves, as seen in the photo at Tring. These changes dramatically improved performance, leading to the Black 6 suggestion. The gear fitted to these last two Black 5s was the basis for that fitted to Duke of Gloucester and the Caprotti fitted BR Standard 5s.
Dave.

 

[Michael Hall]

Thanks so much for this last set of comments.

Larry - I believe there were actually twenty Caprotti Black 5s, although probably only two "Gorillas" (please update me with details). At the minimum I remember a pair with low footplates. One way and another they all looked different.

David @Genghis I believe you are absolutely correct. I suspect the Caprotti Black Fives were one of those designs which would have been developed in to a superior version of an already outstanding design.

Michael @michael mott - that photo - in fact the whole series - shows how important train spotting was as entertainment for the kids of the time. However I only remember it as being entertainment for the male members of the family! Many of our daughters are now in to the railway hobby - my own daughter will be joining me for a tour of Baker Street Station a little later this year.

@1BCamden - smashing comments so thank you. I find it interesting nowadays to identify the buildings from the steam age still in existence and in use. Tim had a skill which I lack in being able to take really good photos from a moving train - although in fairness many of them were less than perfect! Thank you for identifying the location of the third photo. That catch point makes perfect sense although I'd not want to be out of control and facing that wall! As for the fourth - well, it was the next in the sequence and Tim identified it as on the way to Euston so I'm at sea about that one.

We're getting to the end of the sequence at Tring.

A rather lovely panning shot of 8F 2-8-0 48518 on a down freight train at Tring Cutting on 28th July 1962. It had been a Willesden engine since the end of 1950 and moved to Croes Newydd in December 1964 and back to Willesden in March 1965 where it was withdrawn in July 1965. (SLS). It went to Woodham’s Barry in October 1965 and was one of the final “Barry Ten” to leave the yard when it closed. Although not preserved complete it has donated various components to several projects. See 48518 (LMS 8518 & BR 48518) I personally saw and photographed this loco at Willesden Shed in 1965 and at Barry in 1968.

View attachment 217083

Princess Coronation 46250 City of Lichfield on a down Llandudno train at Tring Cutting on 28th July 1962. This was last seen at Euston in post #2794. This loco had been allocated to Carlisle Upperby since June 1958 and was withdrawn in September 1964. (SLS). It ended up at Arnott Young, Troon, where it was scrapped in December the same year. (BR Database). The thing that impresses me more than anything else about these pictures of the "Coros" is the sizes of the trains they hauled! I make this 13 or perhaps even 14 bogie vehicles and this was entirely normal as shown in the next photo. I remember visiting an aunt in New Milton and the Merchant Navy hauled train "pulling up" at the station so that the end coaches could reach the platform. In these days of fixed formats of eight vehicles, or perhaps twelve for some of the recently extended suburban services such prodigious hauling power is probably recognised by but a few of us.

View attachment 217084

The subject of several previous posts Princess Coronation 46228 Duchess of Rutland is here on the up Shamrock at Tring Cutting on 28th July 1962. It had been allocated to Crewe North since July 1959 and was withdrawn from there in September 1964 (SLS) going to Cashmore’s, Great Bridge, where it was scrapped in December the same year. (BR Database).

View attachment 217085

Brian

Great shot of Duchess of Rutland, I travelled behind 6228 from Carlisle to Perth on the sleeper in late August 1964. I had my Philips reel to reel tape recorder with me and I 're-lived' that journey again the other day, banked over Beattock by a 2-6-4 tank. This loco was in Cashmore's Great Bridge three weeks later! More delights then followed with A4's in Scotland and a storming run from Perth to Carstairs behind 6128 The Lovat Scouts a few days later again on the London sleeper. A two week rail rover ticket cost me £25.