Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[LarryG]

As regards the L&Y 3F 0-6-0s, much of my firing time was spend on these engines shunting and trip working between Oldham Clegg Street and Royton Junction. Took one to Manchester.......The Victoria pilot man said he had expected something bigger than Stevenson's Rocket!

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Another fantastic resource for the modeller. To get two views of the same loco on the same day is very rare. Great to see everyday working engines with twisted step treads, buckled coal rails and bent cab roof but no smile from the driver!

If only I modelled the L&Y in the 60's!

Not only that the Crewe photos also provide clues as to the location of the overhead electrification (OHLE) warning signs on the locos and tenders. We're so used to seeing them on the main line locos in earlier posts but not on the smaller goods and shunting locos.

Centrally on the boiler and left and right rear (as you face it) of the tender on the tender locos - although it looks like there is one missing on rear 3/4 view of 52312 as you can see the four fixing holes.

And centrally on the tank side and rear cab side on the tank locos.

In the front 3/4 view of 52312, the Fowler tender in the background has the OHLE warning sign in the centre of the coal bunker facing the cab. This would imply an OHLE warning sign is in a similar position on the main line loco tenders. I wonder how often this detail is picked up by modellers of the 1960s West Coast lines and branches?

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you Ian @Ian@StEnochs . That's music to my ears. I really hope someone will find the photos useful.

Roger @Roger Pound . A shame you didn't see these. However, you'd have seen an even earlier variety of works shunter I guess.

Thank you for the extra bit about the wagon, Barry @Barry37 . And thanks for yours as well, Larry.

Dave @Yorkshire Dave . I'd not noticed the OHLE warnings. Mind you, I wonder how many of the crew did as they saw the same sign day after day in the same positions on the same locos. Ones observation becomes provably dulled with such repetition.

A third LYR 3F/Class 11 0-6-0, No 52093 as a Crewe Works Shunter on 7th May 1961. This was another acquired by Crewe Works for the Mechanical engineers on loan in February 1953 and officially transferred in the following April. It was withdrawn in what appears to have been a cull of the works shunters at the beginning of September 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at Crewe Works (WHTS) later the same month. (BR Database).



Rebuilt Patriot 45545 Planet in Crewe Works on 7th May 1961. The SLS report it in the Erecting Shop on the same date, so this was probably an organised trip in which Tim was a participant. It was on loan at Crewe North from May 1957 and moved to Carlisle Upperby in July 1961, so probably after completion of this overhaul. It was withdrawn in May 1964. (SLS). The Railway Observer report it at Connell’s, Calder, Coatbridge and BR Database report the loco to have been scrapped in November 1964.



G2A 0-8-0 48895 allegedly undergoing a steam test in Crewe Works Yard on 7th May 1961 although the photo suggests it is more likely to be having work done on the regulator. It’s carrying an 8F Springs Branch shed plate and had been shedded there since May 1950. It moved to Bushbury in September 1962 and then Bescot where it was withdrawn in December 1964. (SLS). The SLS report the loco in Crewe Works Sidings on the same date as Tim’s sighting. It was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Great Bridge, although I have no confirmation of the date when this occurred.

Does anyone know the reasoning for this class – possibly uniquely among BR locomotives – having no smoke box numberplate?



Brian

 

[Dave Holt]

There does look to be a whiff of steam around the safety valves, so perhaps it is a steam test? If it was work on the regulator, the top cover of the dome would be off and that sort of work would most probably be done indoors.
Dave.

 

[AJC]

Does anyone know the reasoning for this class – possibly uniquely among BR locomotives – having no smoke box numberplate?

View attachment 219586

Brian

I don't know the reasoning, but it wasn't unique: the other surviving LNWR classes didn't get the plates, either (cf. the Webb Coal Tanks). In that respect I suspect it was simply a continuation of later LMS practise, as they seem not to have had them then, either.

Adam

 

[Roger Pound]

I don't know the reasoning, but it wasn't unique: the other surviving LNWR classes didn't get the plates, either (cf. the Webb Coal Tanks). In that respect I suspect it was simply a continuation of later LMS practise, as they seem not to have had them then, either.

Adam

I agree entirely with this. I feel it was just another one of those Crew versus Derby quirks which emanated from the Grouping, but have no evidence on this - just a thought......

Roger.

 

[Overseer]

I don't know the reasoning, but it wasn't unique: the other surviving LNWR classes didn't get the plates, either (cf. the Webb Coal Tanks). In that respect I suspect it was simply a continuation of later LMS practise, as they seem not to have had them then, either.

Adam

I am sure I have read that the lack of front numberplates was due to the LNWR locos having pressed steel smokebox doors instead of cast steel. The doors were thinner, drilling and tapping them for fixing numberplates resulted in failure of the smokebox doors. Not sure where I read it though.

 

[oldravendale]

Now you mention it, Dave @Dave Holt there does appear to be a feather of steam at the safety valve, so Tim was probably correct. That'll teach me to question the word of someone who was there! I guess there was some boiler work going on, though, judging by the lack of cladding. The absence of coupling rods is notable too. I wonder if the bearings were being remetalled at the same time.

Thank you @AJC , @Roger Pound and @Overseer for putting together a scenario for the lack of smokebox numbers on the ex LNWR classes (notably not just the G2as for which I thank you Adam). I'll attach these comments to the photo as a bit of extra detail.

MR 3Fs 43200 wearing a 17A shed plate with 43605 awaiting scrap in Crewe Works Yard on 7th May 1961.

43200 had been allocated to Derby since at least January 1948 and was withdrawn from there at the end of April 1961. (BR Database and SLS). Both 43200 and 43605 were reported in the Works Yard by the SLS on the date of Tim’s visit and both were scrapped at Crewe Works (SLS), on the case of 43200 in May 1961. (BR Database).

43605 was a Staveley (Barrow Hill) loco from January 1952 and was withdrawn from there in April 1961. (SLS). It was scrapped at Crewe Works (SLS) during June 1961.



Yet another LYR Class 11 0-6-0, No 52218 as a Works Shunter in Crewe Works Yard on 7th May 1961. As with the previous similar locos this arrived at Crewe on loan for the Mechanicals but this time in August 1953. It was allocated to Crewe Works a month later and withdrawn at the end of April 1962. (SLS). Again, reported by the SLS at Crewe Works on the same date as recorded by Tim. The Railway Observer advise it was scrapped at Crewe Works and BR Database that the date was June 1962.

Do I spy a bit more wagonry to excite the aficionados?



LYR Class 11 52459 as another Works Shunter at Crewe Works Yard on 7th May 1961. This was transferred to the MEE at Crewe Works in October 1953 and withdrawn in December 1961. (SLS). It was scrapped in January 1962 (BR Database) at Crewe Works. (SLS).



Brian

 

[LarryG]

I remember all of Newton Heath's L&Y 3F 0-6-0s congregating at Lees 26F in early 1961. At least one had a long wheelbase rivetted Barton Wright Tender while other tenders were with or without coal rails. I had left the railway, but noticed Lees appeared to be making the most of these locos. I spent one teatime on shed and the adjacent station photographing them arriving and going off shed to do pilot work.

By the middle of 1961 they had all gone, never to be seen again in the area ~ withdrawn I suspect.

 

[Barry37]

Now you mention it, Dave @Dave Holt there does appear to be a feather of steam at the safety valve, so Tim was probably correct. That'll teach me to question the word of someone who was there! I guess there was some boiler work going on, though, judging by the lack of cladding. The absence of coupling rods is notable too. I wonder if the bearings were being remetalled at the same time.

Thank you @AJC , @Roger Pound and @Overseer for putting together a scenario for the lack of smokebox numbers on the ex LNWR classes (notably not just the G2as for which I thank you Adam). I'll attach these comments to the photo as a bit of extra detail.

MR 3Fs 43200 wearing a 17A shed plate with 43605 awaiting scrap in Crewe Works Yard on 7th May 1961.

43200 had been allocated to Derby since at least January 1948 and was withdrawn from there at the end of April 1961. (BR Database and SLS). Both 43200 and 43605 were reported in the Works Yard by the SLS on the date of Tim’s visit and both were scrapped at Crewe Works (SLS), on the case of 43200 in May 1961. (BR Database).

43605 was a Staveley (Barrow Hill) loco from January 1952 and was withdrawn from there in April 1961. (SLS). It was scrapped at Crewe Works (SLS) during June 1961.

View attachment 219678

Yet another LYR Class 11 0-6-0, No 52218 as a Works Shunter in Crewe Works Yard on 7th May 1961. As with the previous similar locos this arrived at Crewe on loan for the Mechanicals but this time in August 1953. It was allocated to Crewe Works a month later and withdrawn at the end of April 1962. (SLS). Again, reported by the SLS at Crewe Works on the same date as recorded by Tim. The Railway Observer advise it was scrapped at Crewe Works and BR Database that the date was June 1962.

Do I spy a bit more wagonry to excite the aficionados?

View attachment 219679

LYR Class 11 52459 as another Works Shunter at Crewe Works Yard on 7th May 1961. This was transferred to the MEE at Crewe Works in October 1953 and withdrawn in December 1961. (SLS). It was scrapped in January 1962 (BR Database) at Crewe Works. (SLS).

View attachment 219680

Brian

* falls for bait *
Between 52218's tender and the 16T mineral on the right, there are three wagons, probably all with wood underframes. From right, an RCH 1923 7 plank with end door ex-private owner (though could be an LMS or LNER build). Centre a 5 plank, possibly an LMS D1666. To its left, another 5 plank, which has vertical strapping halfway between the door knee washer plate and the corner plate. There also seems to be a vertical strap up the door. This could possibly be a Midland Railway wagon - D663A or similar.
Perhaps these were Crewe Internal Users, or on their way to be scrapped - Llanymynech, south of Oswestry, was a scrapping location around that time, and not that far from Crewe.

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks for that, Larry. It adds a bit of background to the history of these locos.

Barry @Barry37 . I'm so glad you fell for the bait! The worm I was really dangling was E219212 on the left of the loco, but as you've not commented I suspect it's too common to really require a comment.

Yesterday I was scanning another lot of Tim's slides. Most of these are of family so for those of us who didn't know Tim of very limited interest, but his son and wife value them. I came across a tray called "Mallard on the S & C/Vintage/Welsh Narrow Gauge" and suspected it was another of the series taken after the end of steam but No! Indeed there are some of Mallard and Welsh railways but a number, perhaps 25 or so, taken from about 1961 and onwards. Indeed, there are a couple in there of The Solent Limited which we've seen in these posts previously as B & W images. In truth about half of them are of not great quality and either have camera shake or are slightly out of focus but they enthuse me enough to redouble my scanning of images which, by description, are quite routine but may turn in to something special. We still have many black and white images to come on this thread but there are a growing number of colour images which will follow in due course - and when I've reprocessed them, of course.

Barton Wright Class 23 0-6-0ST 51444 as Works Shunter in Crewe Works Yard on 7th May 1961. It was allocated to the CME at Crewe Works in December 1948 and was withdrawn in August 1961. I could find no confirmed date for scrapping although WHTS confirms the deed was carried out at Crewe Works.



Two here of 47XX 2-8-0 4700 carrying an 81A (Old Oak Common) shed plate at Old Oak on 10th May 1961. Note that the RHS cylinder cover is removed. The loco had been allocated to Old Oak since at least June 1947 and moved just down the road, to Southall, in October 1961 where it was withdrawn in October 1962. (SLS and BR Database). It was scrapped in March 1964 (BR Database) at King’s of Norwich where it was photographed in February the same year. (WHTS).





Another 47XX 2-8-0 at Old Oak Common on 10th May 1961 – this time 4701. The loco was allocated to Old Oak by at least June 1947, moved to Southall in November 1962 and back to Old Oak in November 1962 where it was withdrawn in September 1963. (BR Database and SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Newport in August 1965. (BR Database).



Brian

 

[LarryG]

Some of the Barton Wright 0-6-0 ST's transferred after WW2 to departmental use gave later enthusiasts a taste of a past era with their original dart-fitted smokebox doors. LMS numbers beginning with 1 instead of 5 was quite a novelty.

Thanks to Richard Greenwood (2F 0-6-0ST), Messrs Fairclough (3F 0-6-0 and some others (2F 0-6-0 and 0F 0-4-0ST), some small L&Y locos are still with us.

 

[Dog Star]

Two here of 47XX 2-8-0 4700 carrying an 81A (Old Oak Common) shed plate at Old Oak on 10th May 1961. Note that the RHS cylinder cover is removed. The loco had been allocated to Old Oak since at least June 1947 and moved just down the road, to Southall, in October 1961 where it was withdrawn in October 1962. (SLS and BR Database). It was scrapped in March 1964 (BR Database) at King’s of Norwich where it was photographed in February the same year. (WHTS).

View attachment 219733

Not just the front cylinder cover...

Other missing items include the connecting rod, the slidebars, the motion bracket, the crosshead and the piston rod. As a guess, there was a reason to remove the piston through the cylinder front and the fitters could not separate the crosshead from the piston rod. Someone has decided that removing parts to the rear of the cylinder would allow the crosshead and piston to be removed through the rear of the cylinder.

Or cut through the piston rod....

 

[Barry37]

Thanks for that, Larry. It adds a bit of background to the history of these locos.

Barry @Barry37 . I'm so glad you fell for the bait! The worm I was really dangling was E219212 on the left of the loco, but as you've not commented I suspect it's too common to really require a comment.

Yesterday I was scanning another lot of Tim's slides. Most of these are of family so for those of us who didn't know Tim of very limited interest, but his son and wife value them. I came across a tray called "Mallard on the S & C/Vintage/Welsh Narrow Gauge" and suspected it was another of the series taken after the end of steam but No! Indeed there are some of Mallard and Welsh railways but a number, perhaps 25 or so, taken from about 1961 and onwards. Indeed, there are a couple in there of The Solent Limited which we've seen in these posts previously as B & W images. In truth about half of them are of not great quality and either have camera shake or are slightly out of focus but they enthuse me enough to redouble my scanning of images which, by description, are quite routine but may turn in to something special. We still have many black and white images to come on this thread but there are a growing number of colour images which will follow in due course - and when I've reprocessed them, of course.

Barton Wright Class 23 0-6-0ST 51444 as Works Shunter in Crewe Works Yard on 7th May 1961. It was allocated to the CME at Crewe Works in December 1948 and was withdrawn in August 1961. I could find no confirmed date for scrapping although WHTS confirms the deed was carried out at Crewe Works.

View attachment 219732

Two here of 47XX 2-8-0 4700 carrying an 81A (Old Oak Common) shed plate at Old Oak on 10th May 1961. Note that the RHS cylinder cover is removed. The loco had been allocated to Old Oak since at least June 1947 and moved just down the road, to Southall, in October 1961 where it was withdrawn in October 1962. (SLS and BR Database). It was scrapped in March 1964 (BR Database) at King’s of Norwich where it was photographed in February the same year. (WHTS).

View attachment 219733

View attachment 219735

Another 47XX 2-8-0 at Old Oak Common on 10th May 1961 – this time 4701. The loco was allocated to Old Oak by at least June 1947, moved to Southall in November 1962 and back to Old Oak in November 1962 where it was withdrawn in September 1963. (BR Database and SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Newport in August 1965. (BR Database).

View attachment 219734

Brian

E219212 is an ex-LNER 5 plank, built from 1938, with 8 brakeshoes.Just to the right of it, but mostly hidden by the loco, is a wagon that seems to be a three plank wagon with drop sides. Quite likely to be an ex-LMS sleeper wagon to D1953, or D2098 (which had thinner planks).

 

[76043]

You're teasing us again with mention of colour shots, it's not fair!! ;-)
Tony

 

[AJC]

E219212 is an ex-LNER 5 plank, built from 1938, with 8 brakeshoes.Just to the right of it, but mostly hidden by the loco, is a wagon that seems to be a three plank wagon with drop sides. Quite likely to be an ex-LMS sleeper wagon to D1953, or D2098 (which had thinner planks).

LNER diagram 120 - E219212 was probably a 1940 build. Note that it's recently repainted and has BR pattern axleboxes. A shot of a wagon from the same date and diagram can be found on Paul Bartlett's pages:

LNER Open Merchandise wagons - wooden bodied OWV ZGV KSV ZGO ZRV | DE219231_120__m_

Paul Bartlett's Photographs

PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com

Adam

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks for further memories of the L & Y locos, Larry.

@Dog Star - as ever I'd not seen all that you noted. I wonder if someone had tried to start the loco without opening the cylinder drains and blown the end of the cylinder off? That could have also caused bending of the components behind the cylinder I suppose.

@Barry37 and @AJC - thanks for the info on E219212. Useful stuff to add to the photo.

Tony - @76043 . Sorry about that but the B & W images will keep on coming at the moment. To try and add in the colour images at the same time will make management of the files pretty near impossible as they are, as you'll be well aware by now, vast. Perhaps I should have kept my powder dry but was really excited to see those photos and wanted to share.

Much travelled Black 5 44851 at Kentish Town Shed on 12th May 1961. At the time it was on Derby’s allocation confirmed by the 17A shed plate, moved to Burton in October 1962, then Nottingham a month later and back to Burton in March 1963. Nottingham then had it back in May but it went to Burton again in September 1964 before Trafford Park in March 1966 and finally Newton Heath in March 1968 where it was withdrawn later the same month. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cohen’s, Kettering, in August 1968. (BR Database).



Stanier 2-6-4T 42610 at Kentish Town Shed on 12th May 1961. This was it’s home shed and had been since October 1956. It moved to Rowsley in August 1962, Derby in May 1964 and finally Barrow in Furness in April 1965 where it was withdrawn in July 1966. (SLS). It was scrapped in July the same year (BR Database) at Campbell’s, Airdrie. (RO).



Crab 2-6-0 42904 at Kentish Town Shed on 12th May 1961. This loco was allocated to Sheffield Grimesthorpe in February 1958, then Canklow the day after this photo was taken, Stockport Edgeley in August the same year, Nottingham in June 1963 and Gorton in June 1964 where it was withdrawn in May 1965. BR Database gives a scrapping date of August 1965 but the Railway Observer advises it was done at Central Wagon, Ince, Wigan on 6th September 1965. To totally confuse matter RO also reports the loco being observed as it was cut up on 17th August 1965!



Brian

 

[simond]

I wonder if someone had tried to start the loco without opening the cylinder drains and blown the end of the cylinder off? That could have also caused bending of the components behind the cylinder I suppose.

I‘d hope not, that nice Mr Churchward fitted relief valves, which I suspect would offer sufficient protection if just starting off.

I guess if it primed seriously at speed, that might be another story…

returning to Grahame’s suggestions, I wonder if once the slidebars and conrod are removed, whether the piston, rod crosshead and rear cover would be able to be wangled out between the back of the cylinder and the front wheel. You wouldn’t want to drop it on your toe.

 

[Lancastrian]

Brian,

52442, in post 3717, is actually a 41 Class, being one of 20 built in 1906 to Lot 53, under Hughes' tenure as CME. Original number, 255.

 

[oldravendale]

Well, you see Simon @simond I'd not know about such things on the GWR. But were they common an all British railways? Having expressed my lack of passion for the GW I have to admit to admiring the size and yet neatness of the 47XXs. I have a kit for one. And also for the anachronistic Dukedogs, one of which I've already built.

Ian - @Lancastrian . Thanks for the correction. (I think you're actually meaning 52441 but what's a digit among friends)? I'll update the info attached to the photo accordingly once I've finished this post and am very grateful.

A bit of background to where we are now. I've suddenly become deaf. Properly deaf (although I've been wearing hearing aids for a year or so). It happened like a light switch going off last Friday week. So far I'm being treated very well at Stoke Mandeville Hospital and it looks as though they'll be able to do something about it, but in the meantime no TV. Or pointless TV. I suspect that's an oxymoron. As a result I've been working up the descriptions to go with the photos every evening. All stored carefully under "Western Thunder". And you know what I'm going to say now, don't you? I accidentally deleted them all. But I was backed up. But I'd deleted that as well. As a result I'm part way through creating a new file, the results of which start below. Regrettably I'd spent an age building up details of a "what is this" picture now all lost in the ether, and not one of the three to follow. Anyway it was good fun doing it and it'll be double good fun when I find out what was wrong the first time round. Happy days! So here we go with some re-descriptions.

15XX Class 1507 on the main line at Old Oak on 10th May 1961 with empty stock. I suspect Tim was differentiating this from the flyover lines where we’ve seen this loco previously. It had been at Old Oak since 1960 and was withdrawn from there at the end of November 1963. (SLS). It was dispatched, after a period in store at Southall, to T W Ward at Briton Ferry where it was scrapped by the end of May 1964. (WHTS).



Castle Class 7024 Powis Castle on the main line at Old Oak with a down Bristol train on 10th May 1961. The loco had been allocated to Old Oak since being built in 1949. 7024 moved on to Stafford Road Sept 1961 and Oxley in September 1963 (although the SLS also reports it at St Blazey but this allocation is not confirmed) before being withdrawn in February 1965. (SLS and BR Database). It went to Cashmore's (Newport) where it was finally disposed of in the following May. (BR Database).



57XX 0-6-0PT 8773 also avoiding the flyover with a freight off the Kensington loop on 10th May 1961 except to those who know the truth. The loco had been allocated to Old Oak Common since at least 1947 and was withdrawn from there in October 1962. (SLS and BR Database). It was cut up at Swindon Works on 15th June 1963. (WHTS).



Brian