Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[oldravendale]

Thanks, Simon, for the stuff about 6639.

I'm delighted that the first of the Irish submissions is so well received. I suspect these photos are something of a rarity and Tim has asked that the negatives go to the RPSI when scanned, a request I'll honour when all the Irish photos are done.

The additional info is really helpful so thank you Martin and Overseer, and no need for sackcloth and ashes, Martin! You see, in my ignorance I thought the GNR (I) would be transferred to UTR, not CIE so I never even checked CIE, apart from the fact that, with no evidence whatsoever, I guessed it would be a 4-4-0. I now see that GNR(I) lines south of the border went to CIE which, I guess, accounts for the change. I agree from what I've read that 1956 is early for this change in numbering though. The Great Northern Railway Act 1958 moved the lines south of the border to CIE, so I wonder if the locomotive assets moved earlier? I'll be surprised if Tim has this date wrong as he made a few family transfers to Ireland but I guess it's possible.

Would you be good enough to let me know your references? I'll then do a bit of my own research before I put future photos up. I've relied on my Locoshed books, BR Database and shedbash uk for the photos so far but none of these are a lot of help for Ireland.

I think you are correct about the other loco being a T1 or T2 tank because Tim took the next picture at the same time, so once again a slightly extended title - "Great Victoria Street Belfast. T1 4-4-2T GNRI." There is a suspicion of a "4" on the buffer beam which would make sense bearing in mind the observation by Overseer. I believe these were Beyer Peacock engines of 1913 but confirmation and more details will be appreciated.



Brian

 

[Martin Shaw]

After last nights abysmal display, some further info has been reasonably researched. There were 10 UG class locos, the first five 78-82 built at Dundalk in 1937, the second five, 145-149, by Beyer Peacock in 1948. As Brian points out the GNRI was forced into oblivion by the government in 1958 and subsequently liquidated, the assets, 166 locomotives being equally displaced to the UTA and CIE. OF the first batch 78/9 went to the CIE and 80-2 to the UTA. The second batch were equally split but in inverse ratio. By the time of Tim's photo both locos were still in the ownership of the GNRI.

There were also 25 T class tanks, five numbered 185-189 built by Beyer Peacock in 1913, originally T class and became T1 when superheated. Eventually one went to the CIE and the rest to the UTA. Subsequently twenty T2s were built superheated from new, 1-5 by Beyer Peacock in 1921, 21,30,115/6, 139, 142-44, 147/8 by Nasmyth Wilson in 1924, and another five 62 -66 again by Beyer Peacock in 1929/30. They were split 9 to the UTA and 11 to the CIE in 1958, no doubt the UTA kept the best ones as otherwise there is no reasoning I can see regarding the division. In both these and the UG class all the locos were extant until 1958 and the vast majority lasted until the 60s. I can't locate a picture of a T1 but it is reasonable to think there wasn't a major difference from the T2s. Somewhere I have a book on GNRI locomotives, can't find it anywhere which is unusual for me.

As a coincidence whilst I was assembling this the postman delivered a parcel that contained these,


not pertinent but no doubt interesting.
Regards
Martin

 

[Overseer]

Not sure where the confusion about UG numbers changing in 1958 comes from. 81 is the GNR number of the loco in the 1956 photo. It became 81N after 1958. For the record the UG class were split and renumbered in 1958 as follows:

78 - UTA 45
79 - UTA 46
80 - CIE 80N
81 - CIE 81N
82 - UTA 47
145 - CIE 145N
146 - UTA 48
147 - CIE 147N
148 - CIE 148N
149 - UTA 49

This is from Locomotive Compendium Ireland by Colin Boocock in 2009.

Having had a quick look through a few picture books it seems that UG 81 was not that often photographed. UTA 47, ex GNR 82, seems to be the most photographed UG in the 50's and 60's, often on the former B&CDR Bangor line.

The ABC of Irish Locomotives (1949) tells us that the tank loco number 4 was a T2 class. All the lower number 'T' locos were T2 by 1948 and only 185 to 189 were T1 class. I don't think I could tell the difference in a photo.

 

[Martin Shaw]

Well we seem to have conflicting sources of information here re the UGs, I'm not certain which is correct and I have contacts in the RPSI who will shine some light. Apart from 185-189 which as I said above were T class rebuilt and superheated and became T1, the rest of the 4-4-2T were T2 from their building dates, don't think we disagree here.
Regards
Martin

 

[Overseer]

Well we seem to have conflicting sources of information here re the UGs, I'm not certain which is correct and I have contacts in the RPSI who will shine some light. Apart from 185-189 which as I said above were T class rebuilt and superheated and became T1, the rest of the 4-4-2T were T2 from their building dates, don't think we disagree here.
Regards
Martin

I don't have any primary sources or knowledge to prove which locos went where. I have found published photos of UTA 45, 47, 48 and 49 but unfortunately not 46 yet, nor any of the UG in CIE service. 45 is quoted in several books as being ex GNR 78 (Irish Railways in Colour, Tom Ferris, p60). From the photos 45 and 47 are the same (although 47 had the later type tender) but different to 48 and 49. The differences are minor between the two batches - the position of the builders plates, flush or visible rivets on the splashers and the shape of the dome (easy enough to move between locos though). Based on what I have seen so far it appears to support Colin Boocock's list. Photos of the N suffixed CIE locos would soon confirm which ones they had.

 

[oldravendale]

Please don't fall out over these photos, chaps! In fact it looks as though, for the most part, you are both singing from the same song sheet but may be on different verses as far as some items are concerned. The confusion regarding the UG numbers is mine - I read the info as saying that the numbering had changed by the time of the photo but on re-reading I see that was not the intention, so thanks for the clarification.

The offering for today may be a bit easier as there is more info easily available. This is "GNRI S2 4-4-0 190 Lugnaquilla. December 1958". It's still carrying the GNR(I) badges so I assume will be renumbered UTA 62 in due course but I have nothing regarding the location of the loco when this photo was taken. (S Class No 171 Slieve Gullion is in preservation and currently undergoing a rebuild). I understand that No 190 was introduced in 1939 and withdrawn in 1965. Again any further info to improve my education will be appreciated.



Brian

 

[Dog Star]

Brian (@oldravendale),

Might there be a photo of the Irish engine which was named "Merlin"?

regards, Graham

 

[oldravendale]

Graham - "Merlin" may yet appear - in fact I thought I might have found one of the class V Compounds here but I'm now not so sure.

So, two pictures today, both quite underexposed but one very much worse than the other. First is "Adelaide MPD. Class V Compound", but I'm not so sure. It's undated but I suggest 1958 as it was within a batch carrying that date. I've seen few photos of the class Vs (as is "Merlin") but this doesn't look right for a couple of reasons. Firstly I've found no photos of the Class V carrying smoke deflectors and that number plate looks too big to be carrying just two numbers - the Class Vs were numbered 83 to 87. I wonder if it's a class VS - at least Wiki advises that there's a class with that designation which is a simple rather than compound and is said to look similar. Additionally the VS class numbers were 206 to 210 and that looks a better fit on that number plate. In fact I think it could be 207 and as these were named after Irish rivers this would be "Boyne". They were introduced in 1932 and withdrawn by 1965. Confirmation of the class and any evidence confirming which particular loco this is will be appreciated.



This next one is also "Adelaide MPD Belfast. Believed to be 170, Errigal." also undated but with photos from 1956. I've no reason to disbelieve this description and it's the S class loco of which Tim photographed the nameplate at Great Victoria Street seen in a previous photo. Shame it's so underexposed.



Brian

 

[oldravendale]

A further couple for today. "Adelaide MPD Belfast. T1 4-4-2T. 1957." That fits well with the running sequence I've been able to establish. We've had a bit on this thread previously about the T1s so I'll not repeat it here.



This a bit different, though. Tim describes this as "Belfast Adelaide MPD. R 0-6-4T." but it's undated. The class is, in fact, RT. I believe it's on the same trip as above, so 1957. It's loco number 167, the last of a class of four. This was supplied by Beyer Peacock in 1911 and the last of these was withdrawn in 1963. They were supplied specifically for working in the Belfast Dock area.





Brian

 

[oldravendale]

Continuing the foray in to Ireland and this time a couple of photos of the infrastructure. "Travelling Steam Crane. GNRI Belfast Adelaide MPD Belfast. 1956." I know nothing about this, maker, date of likely introduction or purpose, although possibly for moving ash. I wonder if it's a Smith & Rodley? Lovely selection of cattle wagons in the background. I publish for your simple delectation. More tomorrow.



Brian

 

[oldravendale]

My thanks to those sticking with me through this Irish set. In the absence of any previous knowledge I, personally, have found them entertaining.

I like this one a lot. "Belfast Adelaide MPD. 6th April 1957." It features T2 4-4-2T No 142, SG 0-6-0 No 82 and U 4-4-0 No 206, Liffey. We've talked about the T2s previously. The SG2 is new to these pages, though. Wikiwand gives the number series for the UG class 0-6-0 as 78–82, 5, Dundalk Works, 1937. but other references show the SG class as numbered 180-4 so I'm confused - or maybe the "1" of 182 is covered by the coupling hook although that looks unlikely. Builders were Beyer Peacock: 1915 and Nasmyth Wilson: 1924-5. The loco identified as a "U" is, in fact, a VS. This is another class we've seen before so I'll say no more.



Brian

 

[Overseer]

My thanks to those sticking with me through this Irish set. In the absence of any previous knowledge I, personally, have found them entertaining.

I like this one a lot. "Belfast Adelaide MPD. 6th April 1957." It features T2 4-4-2T No 142, SG 0-6-0 No 82 and U 4-4-0 No 206, Liffey. We've talked about the T2s previously. The SG2 is new to these pages, though. Wikiwand gives the number series for the UG class 0-6-0 as 78–82, 5, Dundalk Works, 1937. but other references show the SG class as numbered 180-4 so I'm confused - or maybe the "1" of 182 is covered by the coupling hook although that looks unlikely. Builders were Beyer Peacock: 1915 and Nasmyth Wilson: 1924-5. The loco identified as a "U" is, in fact, a VS. This is another class we've seen before so I'll say no more.

View attachment 138591

Brian

82 in the photo is a UG class, as seen before. GNR standardisation has confused Tim or whoever captioned the images. Your research is finding the holes in Irish rail information available on line, it is nowhere near as comprehensive as UK info.

 

[Osgood]

My thanks to those sticking with me through this Irish set.......

It was only those lovely images of the steam crane that kept you out of trouble

As to maker, the lower carriage looks most unusual and unfamiliar (to me), so maybe the style of the upper machinery frame will offer a clue.

 

[Osgood]

Looks like a product of Priestman Bros, Hull.

The carriage has the same design features as this one from 1883:

The cylinder , 1st motion flywheel and distinctive crosshead guide design are the same as this slightly later Priestman:

Anorak hung back in cupboard.

 

[Overseer]

For all those wondering why the confusion about loco classes on the Great Northern Railway (Ireland) I have scanned a few pages from the ABC of Irish Locomotives from 1949. The loco class codes were mostly logical but not necessarily memorable. The family resemblance between most classes means it is not easy to pick which size boiler you are looking at to work out which class it is.

 

[oldravendale]

I've not forgotten my intentions regarding this thread. However, right now I'm making up 100+ instructions for Finney7 so that has to be top of my list. I'll be back when I've done.

In the meantime, Tony and Frazer, thank you so much for your investigations in such different directions! I'll study this stuff in more detail in a day or so and I'll be passing it on to Tim. I spoke to him yesterday and he's feeling quite positive, which is remarkable. I have to do some printing of the best of his images in the next week or so and he's starting on notes for an article to which I'm contributing about our work at the start of the Main Line Preservation Group which became Main Line Steam Trust and finally Great Central Railway.

Normal service will be resumed quite soon.

Brian

 

[Osgood]

As a short related intermission then, I was vey recently advised to look at EMRT - East Midlands Railway Trust as inspiration for some ideas for a potential heritage trust concept, not railway-related but having vaguely similar land ownership aspects to EMRT.

A fascinating 'behind the scenes' look at how this significant extension project is slowly coming to fruition.
I'd read somewhere about the bridge replacements but never put 2 and 2 together, and not knowing much about - nor visited - the GCR I had no idea about the ex MOD Ruddington depot connection.

Worth a quick look if you are not familiar with GCR.

 

[oldravendale]

I'm catching up with my workload so have a 50 minute window in which to update this thread.

Tony - Tim has asked for an early sight of the info about the steam crane which I'll be passing to him imminently. That is really fascinating stuff and fits with the little known about the crane. Thank you.

Frazer - Although Tim visited Ireland a number of times his knowledge of Irish railways was, to be kind, somewhat sketchy (although significantly greater than mine, it has to be said). That summary of classes and numbers really helps when identifying the photos and I'll lean on it through this series and also when we come to future photos, some of which are actually rather good. I'll therefore add very little to Tim's comments and those of us who are interested can refer back to the provided data.

Simple "Likes" are really insufficient.

Also, Tony, thank you for your off piste comments about the EMRT. The work already completed on the extension to join up GCR North and South is significant although there remains a huge amount still to do. Regrettably Covid has not helped to push things forward last year but there's considerable momentum to keep moving on. The bridge over the Midland main line is now completed as is the refurbishment of the one over the canal at Loughborough. Advert for the GCR now turned off.

Today four pictures, then we can tuck this current Irish set away.

First "Dundalk Works. December 1956. QL 4-4-0." The number is clearly identifiable as 127 so by reference to Frazer's list Tim has the class correct. I've picked up some expanded info from steamindex which advises: "Compared with previous class had a longer coupled wheelbase to accommodate a larger firebox. The grate area was 22.14ft2 and the total heating surface 1531ft2. The last was built by Beyer Peacock and had strap big-ends instead of the solid fork type fitted to the NBL locomotives. Johnston page 81 includes a weight diagram; also p. 198. The 17 ton axle load restricted route availability. Johnston p. 110 notes that the cylinders were lined up (bushed) to 17¾in between 1913 and 1916 in an attempt at fuel economy.Johnston pp. 118-19 notes that Nos. 157, 114 and 113 were fitted with superheaters whilst retaining slide valves, but problems were experienced with lubrication. Therefore superheating was accompanied by fitting 6½in piston valves, but these were inadequate for the 18½in cylinders. Glover considered the class to be uneconomic as the grates were too large for economical steaming on lightly loaded services, and the frames were too weak for express work: surprisingly some lasted until 1960. See also Glover modifications in general.
113 Neptune NBL 16190/1904
114 Theseus NBL 16191/1904
156 Pandora NBL 16510/1904
157 Orpheus NBL 16511/1904
126 Diana NBL 17814/1907
127 Erebus NBL 17815/1907
128 Mars NBL 17816/1907
24 Juno Beyer Peacock 5329/1910"

That looks pretty complete to me!



Next "Dundalk Works. December 1956. Two PP Class 4-4-0s." I initially read the number of the second loco as 26 but it could just as easily be 46 which would make it the class which Tim has identified, so for my money (at the moment) two PPs it is. More info in "steamindex" if required.



Now "Dundalk GNRI Works. PG 0-6-0 151. 27th December 1956." No 151 is, indeed, a PG 0-6-0. More info available in "steamindex".



Finally, for today, "Last of Class P 4-4-0. Dundalk. 27th December 1956." The number 105 confirms it as a P, so spot on again. More about both the 6' 7" and 5' 6" varieties in "steamindex".



Tomorrow - or maybe the day after - we'll be back to the North East of England.......

Brian

 

[oldravendale]

Back in the North East. Tim calls this one simply "York MPD. March 1960". A nice portrait of 63602, a GCR 04 2-8-0 of 1913. It appears to have been a GC loco all its life. The shed plate clearly shows an allocation of 36C, Frodingham, which fits within a month or two with the available information for 1960. It was previously at Annesley, from January 1956, moving to Colwick in November the same year, then to Frodingham in June 1959 and finally Retford Thrumpton (GC) in January 1960 although the SLS advises that this happened on 20th February. Perhaps the shed plate was not changed - such things became very lax in the '60s. It was withdrawn from there at the end of December 1962 and apparently went to Doncaster for dismantling which happened in early September 1963.

 

[LarryG]

Class 04/8 methinks from memory. Smashing engines I remember well on the Woodhead at Godley Junction, Newton and on the Apethorne cut which was at the bottom of my uncle Harry's garden. He knew a good house when he saw it! Glad we're back in blighty .