Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[oldravendale]

"York MPD. March 1960". Initially I wondered why Tim had exposed a frame on this. Then I realised, it's A2/2 60501, Cock o' the North, and possibly the last opportunity to photograph it as it was withdrawn in the February from York (North) shed where it had lived since 1950. It was scrapped at Doncaster Works.



Brian

 

[Dave Holt]

The unusual 4-2-0-2-2 wheel arrangement might have also influenced his choice?
Dave.

 

[oldravendale]

Funnily enough I had noticed that. I wonder which loco those middle wheels went to in order that it'd be kept on the road. They were probably found defective, though, and the A2 would've been withdrawn as a result. Even in 1960, though, it may have been a bit early for that.

I remember all too well that locos were withdrawn for very minor defects before the end of steam.

Brian

 

[mickoo]

Highly likely to be a hot bearing, York had a wheel drop so under normal circumstances it was an easy job to drop it out and reline.

Thompson Pacifics did not have inside cranks on the intermediate axle like Gresley engines, they were on the leading axle...as were the eccentrics; hence the odd cylinder arrangement caused by trying to use common parts (specifically the connecting rod) for both sets of motion.

Peppercorn saw sense and opted for bespoke inner and outer motion where applicable.

There's some inconsistency in the dates as it was stopped at Doncaster on the 22nd Jan 1960 and condemmed just 17 days later on the 8th Feb 1960 (Yeadons)

However, there is a photo of 501 at Doncaster in March 60 (OPC Power of the A1, A2, A3) noting that it was withdrawn from service in Feb at York and sent south. The interesting part is that it has a full set of motion and wheels and the leading and intermediate look significantly cleaner that the trailing, it also still has a full load of coal.

Note the cut back cab V at the top, caused by the fitting of a Peppercorn Dia 118 A1 boiler in the early 50's, such a shame as it spoiled their rakish looks, #3 and 4 were the only two to retain their original cab shape to the end and were not modified to take the larger boilers.

 

[Eastsidepilot]

I also note that the tender is full of coal so you'd of thought that if it had been withdrawn the coal and/or tender would have been removed ?

Col.

 

[LarryG]

I also note that the tender is full of coal so you'd of thought that if it had been withdrawn the coal and/or tender would have been removed ?

Col.

I emptied a Tender of a withdrawn loco. A loco arrives on shed, is disposed and then put on the coaling stage before going on shed ready for its next duty. Anything could go wrong after that. The driver could report a fault and when it is examined it might be removed from traffic pending higher authority. Was it serious or not worth the expense? Meanwhile, that Tender is still full of coal.

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks for your input, Mick. As we know, Tim's dates can be open to question. In this case, though, his dates may be about right. If the loco was stopped for a hot box which lead to its withdrawal I guess the full set of wheels would have to be fitted for it to be moved to Doncaster. As for the motion - I agree that looks and sounds a bit unlikely although in 1960 we'd not quite reached the Armageddon of withdrawals of a year or two later, so perhaps a standard process for dealing with withdrawn locos had not been established.

As for the coal filled tender - I have a number of my own photos of withdrawn locos carrying a coal filled tender on shed a month or more after withdrawal so I don't think the presence of coal in the tender indicates one way or the other.

For today three very similar images, all are "Darlington. March 1960." I've been to Darlington a few times and, unless someone knows differently, that wall on the right hand side is, I believe, the wall for the station train shed.

To start with a humdrum NBL built Austerity 2-8-0, No 90057, which lead an equally humdrum existence in the North East. Here it is, tender first, on a train of (I believe) steel coal hoppers, doing what an Austerity usually did best. It was a local engine, being shedded at Darlington from June 1959, then Tyne Dock in early December 1962, Hull Dairycoates in December 1963 and finally Goole in December 1966 from where it was withdrawn in June 1967 - I guess with a withdrawal date so close to the end of steam it must have been one of the last Austerities to still be operating at that time. It ended up at Drapers (Hull) being scrapped in January 1968.



I'm not versed in things LNER but I think this is an A1 looking truly disgraceful and working a freight as well! I wonder if it was a Gateshead engine, a shed well known for turning out its allocation in filthy condition. How the mighty are fallen. Identification is difficult so I can't attach any history to this one. I note with interest the presence of a couple of Ford vans, a Morris Minor Estate and another vehicle which this view prevents identifying with any certainty and a horsebox in the formation. (We can discuss further the distinct possibility that I have the vehicle details wrong, but I know a horsebox when I see one!)



This one is a bit easier. J94 68050, one of the Bagnall built locos, had lived at Darlington since at least 1948 and was withdrawn from there in December 1964 from whence it went to Cohens (South Bank, Middlesborough) but I have no details of its final demise.



Brian

 

[mickoo]

If you have a blow up and lightened section of the Peppercorn Pacific then I could be certain, but from what I can see it's an A1.

Distinguishing features are the middle cylinder plate work, if it rakes back with a small vertical section at the top (thin darker line on photo?) it's an A1, if it's flat with angled back sides it's an A2, not that this helps in this view.

A1 have splashers, A2 do not, but they are so small that from this distance they'd be near invisible. The A1 has an enclosed section above the trailing driver between the footplate and boiler, this feature could be discernible from the image but not conclusive.

The A1 has two sand fillers in a - + - + - layout, the A2 has three in a - + - + - - + layout, the gap between the second and third is actually quite large, these two are quite close together and the front (middle if it were an A2) one, if it were an A2, would be much further forward, nearly over the motion bracket, so I'd go with A1.

Interesting load in the four 16T wagons behind the J94, certainly not minerals, looks like gas bottles stacked in there, but I'd not be so happy being that close if I were on the footplate!

The wall is the East side of the station building and given the sun angle, these are mid morning.

 

[oldravendale]

Great stuff again, Mick. If you can't be absolutely positive whether it's an A1 or not there's no hope for me! However, your wish is my command. The image has been cropped, lightened and had some contrast put back in which rather gives away the considerable under exposure but maybe gives you enough info to make a positive ID,



This one is "Newcastle Central. 1st September 1956." It's another class I never saw in the flesh. This is B16/1 of 1920, No 61433, looking in sprightly condition. At the time it was allocated to Neville Hill, Leeds which is about 100 miles from Newcastle - not an impossible journey by any means but I'd have thought it may have had a closer allocation. Further investigation shows it was at Darlington Works for a heavy intermediate, leaving there in late August 1956, so could this have been a running in turn? It's recent time in the works could well explain the external condition too. In any event it was allocated to Selby later in September and moved to York (North) in the middle of June 1959. It was there on 23rd August 1959. The record shows it was withdrawn from York (North) on 30th November 1959 but this brings up another question, as the same record shows it was at Darlington Works from 20th November 1959, leaving on 30th November 1959 with no work done - the very date of withdrawal from York! The likely explanation, to my mind, is that York was it's final allocation which is why it was withdrawn from there as a paper transaction although it never finally went home. I suspect it left Darlington Works to go to the dump where it was scrapped in January 1960.

If anyone has another explanation it'll be interesting to consider.



Brian

 

[mickoo]

Brian, it's an A1, despite the steam there is no third sand filler and the spacing of the two that are visible (if there were three) also confirms an A1, the middle cylinder front plate work looks to have the thin vertical section at the top. The decider is the filled in section between the rear sand box and firebox throat plate.

It's hard to find shots from roughly the same angle but here's a crop of an A2, note positions of sand fillers and round underside to boiler for the whole length.



In contrast an A1 with the rear sand filler further forward and box in section behind it.



Copyright original (unknown) authors.

One thing I had forgotten was the lengthened frames required for the larger drivers on the A1 caused the smokebox front to be too far back, to compensate they extended the whole smoke box, consequently the rear of the smoke deflectors has a noticeable gap to the super heater covers. Not much help in your image as that area is shrouded in steam.

 

[PhilH]

This one is a bit easier. J94 68050, one of the Bagnall built locos, had lived at Darlington since at least 1948 and was withdrawn from there in December 1964 from whence it went to Cohens (South Bank, Middlesborough) but I have no details of its final demise.
Brian

68050 - built by Bagnall in 1945 works No. 2784 for War Department and numbered 75261. Delivered to Longmoor Military Railway for storage. Sold from there to LNER in June 1946 and allocated to Darlington. Withdrawn December 1964 and stored at Darlington MPD until sold to NCB Ashington Workshops for spares March 1965. Boiler fitted to a similar Bagnall loco at Ashington and remains scrapped 1966
(info from Industrial Railway Society publications)

 

[oldravendale]

Hi Mick. You've come up trumps again. Thank you for so much detail. To my eye the A1s were better proportioned than the A2s which always looked a bit stubby. But that's all subjective and a personal view and has nothing at all to do with performance. Saying which, and as a throw away, have you noticed on these photos how long some of these trains were? I appreciate that society has moved on and shorter, more regular trains meet our requirements now, but these steam locos moved huge loads.

Phil - gems of detail, so thank you. My data, which I've found to be 99% reliable sort of fades at the end of the loco's life so I take your info as gospel. We are so lucky that people have taken so much trouble to give us information on which to build histories.

For today there are three not very good images. As a side comment what is noticeable here is that most of the photos taken on this date are quite under exposed, relatively unsharp and not really worthy of reproduction (except for the ancillary details which come out of them) yet on the same date pictures of high quality were taken. These are all early in Tim's photographic career and are probably "box camera days". They are all large format negs. My own photos show that stunning photos could be taken with a box camera, and yet, on the same day, really miserable images would be produced and the quality was entirely dependent on the light when the button was pressed.

So, that was to soften you up for three photos, all entitled "Newcastle Central. 1st September 1956."

First is A4 60014, the famous "Silver Link". It was a Kings Cross engine - in fact had been since 1950. It left Kings Cross for withdrawal at the end of December 1962. It at least had due respect shown by going to Doncaster for dismantling which happened mercifully quickly by mid January 1963.



Next is V2 60847, St Peter's School. This was a York (North) engine from 1946 and was withdrawn from there at the end of June 1965. It ended up at Cashmore's, Great Bridge where it was scrapped in the following August.



Finally A3 60073, St Gatien. At the time it was a Heaton engine, moving to Gateshead in June 1963 and withdrawn from there the following August. It went to Doncaster for scrapping which occurred by the end of August 1963.


Brian

 

[simond]

society has moved on and shorter, more regular trains meet our requirements now

society has moved on and shorter, more OVERCROWDED trains meet our requirements now


Sorry, cynical comment...

 

[PhilH]

More on 68050



This is the boiler from 68050 on 51 Bagnall 2757/44 at Ashington in June 1966. It extended the life of that loco by about 4 years. 51 was transferred to Whittle Colliery in 1967 and scrapped there in February 1970.

 

[oldravendale]

You are quite correct, of course Simon. It's true that, if trains were full strengthening services would be run - look at the ACE. But there was loads of stock available then. Everyone also had a window.

Phil - excellent additional stuff. Many thanks,

For today "Joem" but in working days. This is "Gateshead. 1st September 1956." 69023 was one of the post-nationalisation J72s which appeared in 1951. The shed plate is for Blaydon, 52C, which agrees with BRDatabase. It moved to Gateshead in November 1962 according to the SLS. It was withdrawn in October 1964 and renumbered 59 in Departmental stock. It was sold out of service in September 1966 and purchased for preservation.



Brian

 

[oldravendale]

Two again today, because the first combines subject movement and camera shake so again falls in to the "may be useful" category. This is "Manors Station. 2nd September 1956". The subject is Q7 0-8-0 63461, It belonged to Blaydon at the time, moving to Tyne Dock in June 1957 before withdrawal in December 1962. It moved to Darlington for dismantling in early March 1963.



This is "Gateshead MPD. 1st September 1956, J94 Pushing up to Coal Plant." That says it all really, except that the loco buffers are not touching the wagon so it's possibly finished its pushing. Nevertheless, a nice photo of a Loco Coal wagon in the foreground, and part of a wooden bodied wagon too, possibly on its last trip as it was common for wagons going for scrap to make a last trip full of loco coal although there's no "circle and cross" on the section visible to confirm that this is so. 68048 looks exceptionally clean for a Gateshead loco of any sort and further investigation shows that it wasn't a Gateshead engine at all, but belonged to Sunderland. It moved to Tyne Dock in August 1961 and was withdrawn from there in October 1962. I have no information about disposal so perhaps this is another about which Phil can help us out.



Brian

 

[Osgood]

Now there was a marking for wagons assessed by The Wagon Inspectorate as 'one trip only' (typically a coal working), but I can't think what it was now.

 

[AJC]

Wonderful shot of the J94 there, Brian. The shininess suggests that it's very recently ex-works to me, anyway.

Now there was a marking for wagons assessed by The Wagon Inspectorate as 'one trip only' (typically a coal working), but I can't think what it was now.

There were several - Colex and Subex being the common ones. In 1956, however, that wooden-bodied-wooden-framed wagon (LMS-built to RCH 1923 spec') probably has another 5 years or so in traffic. The chalkings are some sort of shunter's code, I guess. The rather nice LNER loco coal wagon is one of my favourites (the pressed doors you see), and is their diagram 207 and better yet, the number is legible: E 300690.

Adam

 

[Dog Star]

There were several - Colex and Subex being the common ones...

Not to forget "MTD" which was "move to disposal".

 

[LarryG]

Preserved 'Joem' around 1971 on the Worth Valley with a young Richard Greenwood looking on...