Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

Yorkshire Dave

Western Thunderer
Hall 5995 Wick Hall on an Evesham to Kensington milk train at Acton on 4th October 1962. The loco had been at Oxley since November 1950 and was withdrawn at the end of April 1963. (SLS). There were several viewings of the loco on the dump at Swindon and it was reportedly scrapped on 13th July 1963 (WHTS) although BR Database report scrapping in June. I remember seeing milk trains but never with a regular brake van - usually the Guard was in a bogie van of some sort which I assumed carried milk churns. Note also the "Webster" buildings in the background as detailed by Yorkshire Dave in post #3484 and which help to identify the location precisely. Thank you Dave!

img2824 TM Neg Strip 76 5995 Evesham-Kensington Milk Acton 4 Oct 62 copyright Final.jpg

North Acton (Central Line) station is in the left background under the bridge. The Bridge carries Victoria Road.
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Re: the 8F at Willesden - Both 48601 and 48603 were Willesden 'Starred' 8Fs and both had rivetted Fowler 3500 gal tenders.
I was at ModelWorld Live at the NEC today - a couple of the stands had rather well made, and weathered, Trumpeter ?1/35scale models of the class 52 Kriegslok that has previously appeared in these pages.
Picture of one of them att:

View attachment 214322
The cab roof is sitting on the tender to show the interior. One of the other models actually has a single-barrel 20mm AA cannon mounted on the top of the tender aft of the coal area.

*Sorry Martin I hadn't noticed your mention of the starred 8Fs at Willesden.

Slight correction, Kriegsloks have not appeared on these pages, Kriegsloks are class (Baureihe - Br) 52, what has appeared here are Br50, these were built before the war and a lot during the war and were simplified during that confict.

Very few Br52 survived in West Germany after the mid 50's, they were basically knackered and only built as a war machine; East Germany however kept theirs going much longer and rebuilt quite a few into the 52.80 class which lasted until the very end of steam.

In short the 52 is a utilitarian 50, much like a WD 8F is to a LMS 8F, however, lots of 50's were cut back and lightened as well, a sort of half way 50-52 hybrid.

What throws a lot of people is the class 50 when computer numbers became operational, with over 3500 engines the system could not cope with numbers above 999, or more correctly seven digit engine numbers, so the class was split up. The primary issue was West Germany's use of a prefix to the class number, 0 for steam, 1 for electrics, 2 for diesels and 3 for shunters. Example 50 1234 could not become 050 1234 but instead became 051 234.

The class 50 were broken down as thus :-

50 0001 - 0999 became 050 001 - 999
50 1000 - 1999 became 051 001 - 999
50 2000 - 2999 became 052 001 - 999
50 3000 - 3500 became 053 001 - 350

Many people see the 052 number and think it's a Krieglok, it's not, it's a 50 from the 2000-2999 batch.

One other foible with the 50 is that they were not built in chronological order, you would think that 0001 was the original factory design and 3500 the ultimate utilitarian war build, not so, the engine numbers were allotted in contract batches, but the factories did not all build at the same rate, therefore slower factories allocated early contracts could end up building later designed engines but with early numbers. Unraveling the 50 and 52 classes is a life times work.

In closing, the model is 1:35 scale, which is a shame as with some modifications they would make nice 1:32 working models.

Places well worn anorak back in cupboard front and centre ;)
 

David Waite

Western Thunderer
In post 3498 today the first photo shows a train of 4 milk tankers what type of tanker is the second one from the rear it seems to have the ladder off set from normal centre position or is it just my eyes.
David.
 

AJC

Western Thunderer
In post 3498 today the first photo shows a train of 4 milk tankers what type of tanker is the second one from the rear it seems to have the ladder off set from normal centre position or is it just my eyes.
David.

Yes - those catwalks were a feature of United Dairies tanks. That might suggest West Ealing was the origin/destination. But definitely a trip working rather than a whole trainload.

Adam
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Thanks, Tony for yours about the milk train and for proposing the SR van. Then Barry for additional info and David and Adam for further info about the milk train.

Yorkshire Dave - thank you for pin pointing the location and Mick for the treatise on the German 2-10-0s.

Two photos of Fairburn 2-6-4T 42117 light engine coupled to Stanier 2-6-4T 42562 at Willesden on 4th October 1962. 42117 was in post #2618 and had been a Willesden engine since 1950 and was withdrawn from there at the end of December 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at Derby Works in May 1963. (Rail UK).

42562 went to Northampton from Rugby in June 1962 and Willesden on the date of the photo in October the same year and was withdrawn in January 1964. (SLS). It went to Crewe Works for disposal (WHTS) which was completed in March 1964. (BR Database).

img2827 TM Neg Strip 76 42117 & 42562 coupled light Willesden 4 Oct 62 copyright Final.jpg

img2828 TM Neg Strip 76 42117 & 42562 coupled light Willesden 4 Oct 62 copyright Final.jpg

Seen previously in post #3392 8F 2-8-0 48678 on an Eastbound freight at Acton on 4th October 1962. It was a Cricklewood engine from the end of May 1959 and moved around a lot thereafter, the list being: Annesley in May 1963, Burton May 1964, Kirkby in Ashfield March 1965, Westhouses March 1966, Springs Branch Wigan November 1966 and finally Newton Heath December 1967 where it was withdrawn in June 1968. (SLS). It then went to Draper’s, Hull, (RO) where it was scrapped on 18th November 1968. (BR Database).

img2829 TM Neg Strip 76 48678 Eastbound freight Acton 4 Oct 62 copyright Final.jpg

This is an unidentified Grange (at least I think that's what it is) on a Westbound freight at Acton on 4th October 1962. A nice? pill box alongside the train.

img2830 TM Neg Strip 76 Unknown Grange Westbound freight S.Wales line Acton 4 Oct 62 Final copy.jpg

Brian
 

readingtype

Active Member
In closing, the model is 1:35 scale, which is a shame as with some modifications they would make nice 1:32 working models.
I think people have made 1:35 scale working models of this loco with the kit as a basis - scale being a matter of opportunity and/or choice! What I find interesting is how a model manufacturer with no especial interest in railway engineering handles the details. There is no need to pay any attention to 'toy train' issues such as clearance for tight radius curves so details can all be to scale, but small parts with mysterious or unfamiliar function may be interpreted differently. When I started a model of a G10 van (design of broadly Prussian railway administration origin) I noticed that things like the spring hangers didn't look quite like they do on a model by a railway model manufacturer (at any scale). But neither did the wheelsets -- they were much truer, including the subtly coned profile of the axles (thinner in the centre than where they meet the wheel). The 1:35 scale track looks a bit odd to me: I must get hold of some and see if it's better in the flesh.

Ben
 

Arun Sharma

Western Thunderer
Slight correction, Kriegsloks have not appeared on these pages, Kriegsloks are class (Baureihe - Br) 52, what has appeared here are Br50, these were built before the war and a lot during the war and were simplified during that confict.

Very few Br52 survived in West Germany after the mid 50's, they were basically knackered and only built as a war machine; East Germany however kept theirs going much longer and rebuilt quite a few into the 52.80 class which lasted until the very end of steam.

In short the 52 is a utilitarian 50, much like a WD 8F is to a LMS 8F, however, lots of 50's were cut back and lightened as well, a sort of half way 50-52 hybrid.

What throws a lot of people is the class 50 when computer numbers became operational, with over 3500 engines the system could not cope with numbers above 999, or more correctly seven digit engine numbers, so the class was split up. The primary issue was West Germany's use of a prefix to the class number, 0 for steam, 1 for electrics, 2 for diesels and 3 for shunters. Example 50 1234 could not become 050 1234 but instead became 051 234.

The class 50 were broken down as thus :-

50 0001 - 0999 became 050 001 - 999
50 1000 - 1999 became 051 001 - 999
50 2000 - 2999 became 052 001 - 999
50 3000 - 3500 became 053 001 - 350

Many people see the 052 number and think it's a Krieglok, it's not, it's a 50 from the 2000-2999 batch.

One other foible with the 50 is that they were not built in chronological order, you would think that 0001 was the original factory design and 3500 the ultimate utilitarian war build, not so, the engine numbers were allotted in contract batches, but the factories did not all build at the same rate, therefore slower factories allocated early contracts could end up building later designed engines but with early numbers. Unraveling the 50 and 52 classes is a life times work.

In closing, the model is 1:35 scale, which is a shame as with some modifications they would make nice 1:32 working models.

Places well worn anorak back in cupboard front and centre ;)
Thank you - that explains some of the odd numbering that I've seen on preserved DB and DR steam engines. It is a very nice kit, whatever the exact scale.
 

Yorkshire Dave

Western Thunderer
This photo, to me, must rank as one of the best in the collection thus far I've seen. Not for the content but for the nicely composed view (in some respects it would have been nice if a yellow or orange filter was used to enhance the sky).

It is taken from the footbridge which 20m (67') east and parallel to the bridge (behind the photographer) of the Jinty 47543 on the North London Line in post #3,474.

img2830 TM Neg Strip 76 Unknown Grange Westbound freight S.Wales line Acton 4 Oct 62 Final copy.jpg

In this annotated version below I've added descriptions for lines.

I wonder if the GW link to the West London Line was constructed at the same time as the 1899-1905 GW&GC Joint line or the 1920 Central London Railway extension. Do any GW&GC Joint or GW aficionados know?

North Acton.jpg
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
I wonder if the GW link to the West London Line was constructed at the same time as the 1899-1905 GW&GC Joint line or the 1920 Central London Railway extension. Do any GW&GC Joint or GW aficionados know?
The Signalling Record Society "signal box regster" shall give the opening date for the boxes on the link line...
 

Martin Shaw

Western Thunderer
Col Cobb suggests 1917, a line from Viaduct Junc to an North Acton Junc immediately west of Old Oak Lane Halt, closed in 1964. Strangely Jowett's Atlas doesn't show it at all.
Martin
 
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D869Zest

New Member
Anyone know more about the tank wagons in the background in the previous post?
Slightly tardy reply but... the style suggests a sulphuric or other acid tank to me. They tended to have barge boards level with the tank centre line. It doesn't have the clearance between chassis and tank that some acid tanks have. Almost certainly built for a private owner.
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
The Signalling Record Society "signal box regster" shall give the opening date for the boxes on the link line...
How about Cemetry Road opened in May 1903? As this shown as a GW type 28B box then looks a likely candidate to reflect an opening that is contemporary with the GW New Line.

rgds, G
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Ben and Arun - thanks for further comment about the BR50/52. We like a bit of German Railway stuff on here!

Yorkshire Dave. The amount of work you've done on that photo is outstanding. I'm glad indeed that I put it on here - I thought twice about it as I reckoned it was a bit bland but you've changed my appreciation. As you've said many time previously it's often the least likely photos that provide the greatest interest. Then Graham and Martin. My thanks for the "extras".

D869Zest - Please never fail to make a comment even if at a much later date than the initial presentation of a photo. In fact I'm now working from the very beginning of the collection and updating the earliest information with details learned since they were first shown.

In short Tim would have been amazed and delighted. It's sad that we don't have him with us for some of our discussions but you've all done him proud

Jubilee 45639 Raleigh on a return excursion from Brighton to Leicester at Acton on 4th October 1962. The loco was at Holbeck from July 1951 and was withdrawn in September 1963. (SLS). WHTS advises that it was scrapped at Crewe Works in January 1964.

img2831 TM Neg Strip 76 45639 Return excursion ex Brighton-Leicester Acton 4 Oct 62 copyright ...jpg

Two photos of S15 4-6-0 30839 on a freight for the Southern Region at Acton on 4th October 1962. It was a Feltham engine from 1939 and was withdrawn in September 1965. (BR Database). WHTS advise it then went to Bird’s at Risca and BR Database confirms scrapping in May 1966.

img2832 TM Neg Strip 76 30839 freight for S Region Acton 4 Oct 62 copyright Final.jpg

img2833 TM Neg Strip 76 30839 freight for S Region Acton 4 Oct 62 copyrigt Final .jpg

Here’s Jinty 47543 which we saw on this train in post #3474 (img2823) This is on a transfer freight from the Southern Region at Acton on 4th October 1962. Details are, of course the same, and we now have more information about the wagon behind the loco – in fact in this photo there may be two of them immediately behind the loco. Using this as a reference we can show that these photos were all taken across the tracks from the plant of "Dubilier" which confirms the precise location about which we are, of course, already now aware.

img2834 TM Neg Strip 76 47543 transfer freight ex southern region Acton 4 Oct 62 copyright Final.jpg

Brian
 

Yorkshire Dave

Western Thunderer
Interesting set of four photos.

ubilee 45639 Raleigh on a return excursion from Brighton to Leicester at Acton on 4th October 1962. The loco was at Holbeck from July 1951 and was withdrawn in September 1963. (SLS). WHTS advises that it was scrapped at Crewe Works in January 1964.

img2831 TM Neg Strip 76 45639 Return excursion ex Brighton-Leicester Acton 4 Oct 62 copyright ...jpg

This would have taken a bit of a circuitous route around South London from the Brighton line to reach Kew Bridge to pick up the North London Line thence to Cricklewood to join the Midland Main Line.


Two photos of S15 4-6-0 30839 on a freight for the Southern Region at Acton on 4th October 1962. It was a Feltham engine from 1939 and was withdrawn in September 1965. (BR Database). WHTS advise it then went to Bird’s at Risca and BR Database confirms scrapping in May 1966.

img2832 TM Neg Strip 76 30839 freight for S Region Acton 4 Oct 62 copyright Final.jpg

At first glance the headcode on the S15 reads either: Victoria or West London line and Ramsgate via Herne Hill or Catford Loop or West London line to East Croydon via Crystal Palace (LL).

However, it will unlikey to be heading towards either of these destinations as the train is on the North London Line - not the West London Line. I suspect the SR loco crew have used the discs in the standard BR headcode position being on 'foreign metals' for an express unfitted freight. The crew would have rearranged the headcode discs for the correct destination once on SR metals at Kew Bridge.


Here’s Jinty 47543 which we saw on this train in post #3474 (img2823) This is on a transfer freight from the Southern Region at Acton on 4th October 1962. Details are, of course the same, and we now have more information about the wagon behind the loco – in fact in this photo there may be two of them immediately behind the loco. Using this as a reference we can show that these photos were all taken across the tracks from the plant of "Dubilier" which confirms the precise location about which we are, of course, already now aware.

img2834 TM Neg Strip 76 47543 transfer freight ex southern region Acton 4 Oct 62 copyright Final.jpg

In the meantime the Jinty is carrying the standard BR headcode for a through freight train. Could well have started at the ex-Midland Railway Kew Bridge North Depot or be one the then daily West Kensington to Brent freights which were known to use this route.
 

Barry37

Western Thunderer
Ben and Arun - thanks for further comment about the BR50/52. We like a bit of German Railway stuff on here!

Yorkshire Dave. The amount of work you've done on that photo is outstanding. I'm glad indeed that I put it on here - I thought twice about it as I reckoned it was a bit bland but you've changed my appreciation. As you've said many time previously it's often the least likely photos that provide the greatest interest. Then Graham and Martin. My thanks for the "extras".

D869Zest - Please never fail to make a comment even if at a much later date than the initial presentation of a photo. In fact I'm now working from the very beginning of the collection and updating the earliest information with details learned since they were first shown.

In short Tim would have been amazed and delighted. It's sad that we don't have him with us for some of our discussions but you've all done him proud

Jubilee 45639 Raleigh on a return excursion from Brighton to Leicester at Acton on 4th October 1962. The loco was at Holbeck from July 1951 and was withdrawn in September 1963. (SLS). WHTS advises that it was scrapped at Crewe Works in January 1964.

View attachment 214622

Two photos of S15 4-6-0 30839 on a freight for the Southern Region at Acton on 4th October 1962. It was a Feltham engine from 1939 and was withdrawn in September 1965. (BR Database). WHTS advise it then went to Bird’s at Risca and BR Database confirms scrapping in May 1966.

View attachment 214621

View attachment 214623

Here’s Jinty 47543 which we saw on this train in post #3474 (img2823) This is on a transfer freight from the Southern Region at Acton on 4th October 1962. Details are, of course the same, and we now have more information about the wagon behind the loco – in fact in this photo there may be two of them immediately behind the loco. Using this as a reference we can show that these photos were all taken across the tracks from the plant of "Dubilier" which confirms the precise location about which we are, of course, already now aware.

View attachment 214624

Brian
The first wagon is a 16T riveted wagon as before, but the second wagon is a 16T welded steel mineral wagon. The lack of top side doors would seem to make it an LMS wagon to D2109. BR-built wagons running at this time, generally had top side doors (as wagons four and five) and were to D1/108. Later (1970s) rebuilds of D1/108 dispensed with the top doors.
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Dave - Thanks for the "extras" again. All that info will be added to the descriptions.

Barry - Thank you too. As I said I reviewed that photo and really thought the second wagon was identical to the first. All the info about the wagons is so useful.

For today only two subjects and loadsa photos because clearly Tim wanted to ensure he had a decent record of the B16 in London and as far as the A4 is concerned he could see the "writing on the wall" for ER steam in London. As there are a few images I'll spread them over two posts.

We saw a single frame of this B16, 61438, at Marylebone in post #3449 (img2786). Here are four more. 61438 was allocated to York North in March 1943 (BR Database). It moved to Hull Dairycoates in December 1962 and was withdrawn from there in June 1964. (SLS). It was sold for scrap to Draper’s, Hull, in September 1964 and cut up there at the beginning of October 1964. (BR Database). In the final frame the loco is backing down on to the stock for the LCGB special on 30th September 1963. Note Black Five 44846 in shot. There’s a photo of this loco in Kentish Town Shed in February 1961. (Post #1503, img1276). 44846 appears to have been a Kentish Town resident since 1948 - it's in the Locoshed Books for 1958 and 1959 as still being there - although it moved around afterwards, including a stint on the GCR before ending up on the LMS at Newton Heath where it was withdrawn in January 1968. (BR Database). It then went to Drapers in Hull where it was scrapped by the end of April the same year. (Rail UK).

img2835 TM Neg Strip 77 61438 Marylebone 30 Sept 62 copyright final.jpg

img2836 TM Neg Strip 77 61438 Marylebone 30 Sept 62 copyright Final.jpg

img2837 TM Neg Strip 77 61438 backing down to stock LCGB special Marylebone 30 Sept 62 copyrig...jpg

img2838 TM Neg Strip 77 61438 backing down to stock LCGB special 44846 in shot Marylebone 30 S...jpg

Although difficult to identify this is Fairburn 2-6-4T 42070 bringing the stock for the LCGB special in to Marylebone on 30th September 1962. Black 5 44846 is in the loco yard and this gives a reasonable view of the facilities. 42070 was a Neasden engine from July 1960, moving to Cricklewood on the closure of Neasden Shed in June 1962 and finally Stoke in August 1964 where it was withdrawn in June 1965. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore’s Great Bridge in September the same year.

I have good reason to remember this engine as it handled the official last loco hauled Metropolitan Line train from Rickmansworth to Amersham and return on 10th September 1961 on which I was a passenger with my dear departed father.

img2839 TM Neg Strip 77 Yard at Marylebone 42070 on stock for LCGB special Marylebone 30 Sept ...jpg

Brian
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Eight photos here of A4 60022 Mallard awaiting the right o’ way and then leaving Kings Cross on 22nd September 1962 with the White Rose to Leeds. New Deltic and a Brush Type 2 in evidence as are the row of oil tankers in the “lower shed” yard. We’ve seen the loco a few times previously on the West Countryman in 1963. It was a Kings Cross engine from April 1948 being withdrawn from there in April 1963. Its life thereafter is well documented elsewhere.

img2840 TM Neg Strip 75 60022 waiting right o way White Rose to Leeds Kings Cross 22 Sept 62 c...jpg

img2841 TM Neg Strip 75 60022 waiting right o way White Rose to Leeds Kings Cross 22 Sept 62 c...jpg

img2842 TM Neg Strip 75 60022 waiting right o way White Rose to Leeds Kings Cross 22 Sept 62 c...jpg

img2843 TM Neg Strip 75 60022 waiting right o way White Rose to Leeds Kings Cross 22 Sept 62 c...jpg

img2844 TM Neg Strip 75 60022 waiting right o way White Rose to Leeds Kings Cross 22 Sept 62 R...jpg

img2845 TM Neg Strip 75 60022 waiting right o way White Rose to Leeds Kings Cross 22 Sept 62 c...jpg

img2845 TM Neg Strip 75 60022 waiting right o way White Rose to Leeds Kings Cross 22 Sept 62 c...jpg

img2846 TM Neg Strip 75 60022 waiting right o way White Rose to Leeds Kings Cross 22 Sept 62 c...jpg

img2847 TM Neg Strip 75 60022 waiting right o way White Rose to Leeds Kings Cross 22 Sept 62 c...jpg


Brian
 

Roger Pound

Western Thunderer
The rebuilt B16's were handsome machines. Thank you for the delightful additional pictures. I dug out the oldest surviving ABC that I have - a 1954 edition, but alas. 61438 is not recorded as having been seen. On the other hand, 44846 is recorded as seen - not too surprising as it was allocated to Kentish Town for most of the 1950's and would have no doubt appeared regularly on the Midland line through the East Midlands.

Once more, my thanks for renewing memories of my yesteryear!

Roger
 
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