Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[Martin Shaw]

Well done Mick, the dome cover confused me. I would therefore also agree with 60065 Knight of Thistle as the likely contender, it has appeared in here before. Peter Coster in his writings suggests 60069 Sceptre was not a common visitor to Kings Cross. Runs quickly away and hides.
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks again all. I'm now wondering whether the photos I have of Tim's son on a sledge is in Priory Park rather than Ally Pally.

Larry - I have some PD2s as well, mainly IOW, but all proper buses!

Info re the A3 amazes me, Mick. How you retain all that detail escapes me.

Clarification about the death of Southdown appreciated too, Ken.

Martin. Thank you for the info re the A1X and the fibreglass bodied coach. I think there may be more of that to follow but it'll be in a while. You comment on the first at Fratton, but that, surely, was the shed and the photo is at Havant?

Thanks again Dave and Tony. I'm delighted that so much info could be generated by a simple London Transport bus. This sort of stuff really makes the photos come alive for me.

Jim - what a typical comment by our parents. They really didn't get it, did they? I used my paper round money to buy film and processing and though most of the photos are not great quality they bring back some wonderful memories.

Now more ECML....

Kings Cross between 18th June and 22nd July 1961 and A4 60003 Andrew K McCosh. By now it was a Kings Cross loco, withdrawn from there in December 1962. (SLS). It went back to Doncaster for scrapping which was complete in January 1963.



Britannia 70040 Clive of India at Hornsey at some time between 18th June and 22nd July 1961. It was an Immingham engine at the time, moving to Carlisle Upperby and then Kingmoor where it was withdrawn in April 1967. (SLS). It went to J McWilliams, Shettleston where it was scrapped in November.



A4 60017 Silver Fox at Kings Cross between 18th June and 22nd July 1961. It had been a Kings Cross engine since 1935 but had the indignity of being reallocated to New England in June 1963 from where it was withdrawn in October. (SLS). It went to Doncaster Works where it was scrapped in December.



A3 60045 Lemberg light engine backing out of Kings Cross between 18th June and 22nd July 1961. Deflectors were fitted during a works visit to Doncaster between 28th August and 1st November 1962. It was a Gateshead engine from November 1958 at the time of the photo and then moved around a lot, ending up at Darlington in December 1963 where it was withdrawn in November 1964. (SLS). It went to Drapers, Hull, where it was disposed of by the end of January 1965.



Brian

 

[mickoo]

Info re the A3 amazes me, Mick. How you retain all that detail escapes me.

Brian

I have a spread sheet and the green book of words, I just need to know where they are and the rest is just a case of following the yellow brick road

I like that last picture, nice portrait of an A3 at the cross.

 

[simond]

What’s the door-like thing on the platform in the picture of 60003?

And how come it’s just lying there waiting to trip the unwary…?

 

[oldravendale]

I reckon that's one of the boards used to seal off the corridor end of a set. They were common on platforms at the time and there are a few of Tim's photos which show similar boards on platforms.

Yes, they could trip the unwary, but at that time we didn't have H & S and were rather more aware of looking after ourselves. If we'd tripped we'd have blamed ourselves and not gone for the nearest solicitor.

Brian

 

[Dan Randall]

I reckon that's one of the boards used to seal off the corridor end of a set. They were common on platforms at the time and there are a few of Tim's photos which show similar boards on platforms.

Yes, they could trip the unwary, but at that time we didn't have H & S and were rather more aware of looking after ourselves. If we'd tripped we'd have blamed ourselves and not gone for the nearest solicitor.

Brian

I agree with Brian - that’s one of the earlier types and looks to be made from just wood. I think there were some made from wood and canvas too? BR did a more stylish version (IMHO), with the introduction of their Mk1 coaches. They were made from fibreglass I believe and bore the legend B R, on the left and right doors, respectively. Like the one in Tim’s photo, the BR version was actually two narrow doors, hinged together.

To fit them, the RHS door would be positioned (offset to the right by a few inches, from its final position), into the opening in the steel gangway faceplate One or two protruding lugs, on the rear, at the bottom of the door (visible in Tim’s photo), took the weight, then everything could be slid smartly to the left. This engaged some side clips attached to the door, which wrapped around the back of the faceplate on the RHS. With this done, the LHS door could then be swung round through 180 degrees (with another lug or two at the bottom), and some more side clips on that door engaged, by means of a locking mechanism on that side.

As a C&W volunteer on the SVR many years ago, I got to do this on several occasions and I imagine the doors were made as bi-folds, because a single, full width door, would have been very unwieldy, especially during a gale!

I never got to play with one of the early wood or wood/canvas versions, but looking at Tim’s photo again, it rather looks like the LHS door would need to be engaged first, so a reversal of the BR version perhaps?


Regards

Dan

 

[simond]

thanks both. I had not "clicked" that it was a pair of half doors with hinges between, but now obvious!

 

[oldravendale]

Excellent description, Dan.

Just as a side comment some of the named trains had the appropriate logo applied to these rear doors so as you ran up the platform you knew which train you'd just missed. The Caledonian was one I remember but probably the Royal Scot, Mid-day Scot etc had the same arrangement. I can't speak from memory for other BR regions.

Brian

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

A3 60045 Lemberg light engine backing out of Kings Cross between 18th June and 22nd July 1961. Deflectors were fitted during a works visit to Doncaster between 28th August and 1st November 1962. It was a Gateshead engine from November 1958 at the time of the photo and then moved around a lot, ending up at Darlington in December 1963 where it was withdrawn in November 1964. (SLS). It went to Drapers, Hull, where it was disposed of by the end of January 1965.

Also notice the class 15 (BTH type 1 built 1957-61) diesel in the background without any front warning panels in either the York Road platform or the adjacent road. It would have fairly new at the time this photo was taken. Also the class 31 (Brush type 2) in the platform next to the subject loco.

 

[Martin Shaw]

You comment on the first at Fratton, but that, surely, was the shed and the photo is at Havant?

Yes Brian, when I said Fratton you should have understood I was actually saying Havant, I must have been having a bad day.
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

Even more goodies there for me to cogitate over.

Mick - that's still an impressive source of info and interest, particularly as you were probably not even in short trousers when the last of the A3s were withdrawn. Maybe the phrase "just a twinkle in your daddy's eyes" comes to mind.

We have, of course, already discussed the doors, but still an interesting interlude.

Yorkie Dave - Funnily enough I had noticed those two diesels and intended to make a comment about them. Another case of brain fade I'm sorry to say.

Martin - thank you for what we should perhaps call a simple clarification to avoid embarrassment, eh?

Tim has titled this as "The last BR A4 at the Cross". It's 1964 and 60007, Sir Nigel Gresley. In fact it wasn't the last A4 at Kings Cross. That honour fell to 60009 Union of South Arica in October 1964. There were some unofficial steam movements thereafter including an A3 used for carriage heating which I understand could have been 60109, Hermit, which was driven to and from Kings Cross shed for coal and water although that seems unlikely as all the records I've found state that 60109 was scrapped in March or April 1963. More info will probably be supplied (I hope) by the erudite members of WT.





...and the Southern photobomb again! Hooray!

Merchant Navy 35008 Orient Line at an unknown location in 1964. We have a choice for the route described by the headcode but I suspect it's Waterloo and Nine Elms and Brockenhurst and Bournemouth West via Sway. 35008 was a Bournemouth engine in 1964 moving later to Weymouth and finally Nine Elms in April 1967 where it was one of the final survivors being withdrawn on 9th July 1967. (SLS). It went to Buttigieg's, Newport, where it was scrapped in October 1968. (WHTS).



York in 1960 and A3 60045 Lemberg again carrying shed plate 52A, Gateshead - see the details in the photo above, post #2502.



York 1960 again and B16 4-6-0 61430 carrying a 50A York shed plate with 61435 behind. 61430 was allocated to York from 1949 and was withdrawn from there on 1st October 1959. (SLS). It was observed in Darlington Works yard still intact on 10th October 1959 and again on 26th October (WHTS) so the date of this photo must be earlier than recorded. 61435 was a York engine (BR Database), going to Hull (Dairycoates) in December 1962 where it was withdrawn in July 1964. (SLS). It was scrapped at Drapers, Hull, in November 1964. (BR Database).



Brian

 

[Barry37]

Even more goodies there for me to cogitate over.

Mick - that's still an impressive source of info and interest, particularly as you were probably not even in short trousers when the last of the A3s were withdrawn. Maybe the phrase "just a twinkle in your daddy's eyes" comes to mind.

We have, of course, already discussed the doors, but still an interesting interlude.

Yorkie Dave - Funnily enough I had noticed those two diesels and intended to make a comment about them. Another case of brain fade I'm sorry to say.

Martin - thank you for what we should perhaps call a simple clarification to avoid embarrassment, eh?

Tim has titled this as "The last BR A4 at the Cross". It's 1964 and 60007, Sir Nigel Gresley. In fact it wasn't the last A4 at Kings Cross. That honour fell to 60009 Union of South Arica in October 1964. There were some unofficial steam movements thereafter including an A3 used for carriage heating which I understand could have been 60109, Hermit, which was driven to and from Kings Cross shed for coal and water although that seems unlikely as all the records I've found state that 60109 was scrapped in March or April 1963. More info will probably be supplied (I hope) by the erudite members of WT.

View attachment 197117

View attachment 197118

...and the Southern photobomb again! Hooray!

Merchant Navy 35008 Orient Line at an unknown location in 1964. We have a choice for the route described by the headcode but I suspect it's Waterloo and Nine Elms and Brockenhurst and Bournemouth West via Sway. 35008 was a Bournemouth engine in 1964 moving later to Weymouth and finally Nine Elms in April 1967 where it was one of the final survivors being withdrawn on 9th July 1967. (SLS). It went to Buttigieg's, Newport, where it was scrapped in October 1968. (WHTS).

View attachment 197119

York in 1960 and A3 60045 Lemberg again carrying shed plate 52A, Gateshead - see the details in the photo above, post #2502.

View attachment 197120

York 1960 again and B16 4-6-0 61430 carrying a 50A York shed plate with 61435 behind. 61430 was allocated to York from 1949 and was withdrawn from there on 1st October 1959. (SLS). It was observed in Darlington Works yard still intact on 10th October 1959 and again on 26th October (WHTS) so the date of this photo must be earlier than recorded. 61435 was a York engine (BR Database), going to Hull (Dairycoates) in December 1962 where it was withdrawn in July 1964. (SLS). It was scrapped at Drapers, Hull, in November 1964. (BR Database).

View attachment 197121

Brian

The Orient Line photo: Odiham Road bridge west of Winchfield station has a similar bridge with a stepped parapet* like the one in the photo. Unfortunately, the higher part is on the north end, so the wrong way round for a train going southwest.
Perhaps the bridge in the photo has been rebuilt since the 1960s.
* because the road slopes uphill on the bridge

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you for that suggestion about the location, Barry. I actually know where you mean although I didn't immediately recognise it.

For today back to the WCML and a brief diversion to the GWR on a day when Tim was clearly visiting several areas in and around London.

Rebuilt Patriot 45535 Sir Herbert Walker KCB on a down fitted freight at Headstone Lane on 16th May 1962. By this time it was an Edge Hill loco then went to Carlisle Kingmoor in November 1962 and was withdrawn from there in October 1963. (SLS). It was scrapped by the end of September 1964 at Rigleys, Bulwell Forest. (Rail UK).





Another down fitted freight at Headstone Lane on 16th May 1962 hauled by Jubilee 45587 Baroda. This had been allocated to it's final shed, Carnforth, from 5th May and was withdrawn from there in December. (SLS). It was scrapped at Horwich Works by the end of September 1963. (Rail UK).



Castle 4076 Carmarthen Castle entering Paddington on 16th May 1962. It was allocated to it's final shed by now, Llanelli where it was withdrawn in February 1963. (SLS). It was scrapped by the end of October at Hayes, Bridgend. (Rail UK).



Brian

 

[76043]

What's the chances of three LNER vans all with clasp brake shoes in row behind a Patriot? I was looking up my LNER vans only this morning.

Tony

 

[Dave F.]

What's the chances of three LNER vans all with clasp brake shoes in row behind a Patriot? I was looking up my LNER vans only this morning.

Tony

Ah but, the third one has steel ends....

Sorry, pedant mode off now.

Like you I've been doing vans recently, a right mixed lot.
Ratio, Airfix with Parkside under gubbings but mostly the excellent Parkside kits and all with Gibson EM wheelsets and Lanarkshire buffers etc.

Dave F

 

[Roger Pound]

Nice to see the B16's at York. Reminded me of evenings waiting at the side of the old GC in Aylestone, Leicester, for the up freight locally called "The York Goods". These sturdy locos were inevitably allocated for this job, although there were tales of an A2 on rare occasions. I never saw one myself on this turn so I cannot verify that story. Occasionally a V2 or B1 appeared, but as I have said, the rugged B16's principally held sway.
Thank you once again, Brian, for once again reminding me of my long past youth.....!

Roger.

 

[LarryG]

I had just one ride behind an original B16 from Leeds to York, and boy did it move! We used to see these 'foreign' locos in the magazines/books of the day (foreign being anything not London Midland), and take days out hoping to see some of them. The NER B16's had outlived many big pre-group passenger engines by 1961.

 

[76043]

Ah but, the third one has steel ends....

Sorry, pedant mode off now.

Ah, I didn't spot the corrugated one!! Nice set of vans there! Have you posted about them on WT?
Cheers
Tony

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Rebuilt Patriot 45535 Sir Herbert Walker KCB on a down fitted freight at Headstone Lane on 16th May 1962. By this time it was an Edge Hill loco then went to Carlisle Kingmoor in November 1962 and was withdrawn from there in October 1963. (SLS). It was scrapped by the end of September 1964 at Rigleys, Bulwell Forest. (Rail UK).

I was curious as to why a LMS engine originally built in 1933 was named Sir Herbert Walker KCB after the Southern Railway General Manager.

Then read a brief biography - maybe it was his LNWR connection? Joined LNWR in 1885 at Euston as a clerk and rose through the ranks to become Assistant to the General Manager in 1911.

And the rest of his illustrious career. 1912 - General Manager of LSWR; 1917 - Acting Chairman of the Railway Executive Committee; 1923 - General Manager of Southern Railway; retired in 1937 and became a Director of the Southern Railway until nationalisation.

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you for your advice about the rolling stock, Tony and Dave. I have insufficient knowledge to be able to comment on such things so any similar info is really useful. A nice (extensive!) set of vans too, Dave.

Roger and Larry. Good memories there of the B16s. I regret never having seen one, fine engines that they were.

As ever, Yorkshire Dave, some great additional notes to go with the photos of 45535.

We have a mixed bag today, all in May 1962.

Black 5 45034 leaving the unmistakable environs of St Pancras on a relief Manchester train on 16th May 1962. From September 1961 this was a Speke Junction loco and was withdrawn from there in February 1968. (SLS). It was scrapped at T W Ward Killamarsh by the end of May. (Rail UK).



Rebuilt Patriot 45540 Sir Robert Turnbull even at this late date with the original BR totem on the tender awaiting the right away at St Pancras on the 5.45 Derby train on 16 May 62. It had been allocated to Derby since 5th May and finally went to Carlisle Upperby in June where it was withdrawn in early April 1963. (SLS). It was scrapped by the end of July at Crewe Works. (Rail UK).







Britannia 70037 Hereward the Wake beside the magnificent structure that was Kings Cross 'Box leaving Kings Cross on the 6.50 to Cleethorpes on 16th May 1962. It was an Immingham engine at the time, moving to Carlisle Upperby in December 1963 and finally Carlisle Kingmoor in February 1964 where it was withdrawn in early November 1966. (SLS). It went to J McWilliams, Shettleston, where it was scrapped in early February 1968.



Brian