Prototype Tim Mills' Photos
- Thread starter oldravendale
- Start date
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Thanks all. Please forgive a lack of an immediate reply - friends have arrived. I'll be back on line by the end of the week.
Brian
Brian
Martin Shaw
Western Thunderer
Brian
IMG#2091 the unknown loco and location, I know you didn't feel the need to investigate further but I never was any good at doing as I'm told. I'll bow to Dave's better knowledge of tenders, so the loco is almost certainly 35023 Holland-Afrika Line, the location courtesy of the good folk at the SRemG is Oatlands Carriage Sidings. The pic is of an up train taken from Sir Richard's Bridge just west of Walton on Thames station. It's certainly nowhere near Darlington!
Regards
Martin
IMG#2091 the unknown loco and location, I know you didn't feel the need to investigate further but I never was any good at doing as I'm told. I'll bow to Dave's better knowledge of tenders, so the loco is almost certainly 35023 Holland-Afrika Line, the location courtesy of the good folk at the SRemG is Oatlands Carriage Sidings. The pic is of an up train taken from Sir Richard's Bridge just west of Walton on Thames station. It's certainly nowhere near Darlington!
Regards
Martin
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Thanks Larry. That's a reminiscence I'll add to the photo. Thanks for the details of the stock too, Tony.
Phil - I'm in your debt. Tim had identified all these as Bowaters and I took this at face value. Your corrections are really important, will be added to the files on these photos and I'll edit the commentary accordingly.
Simon - there's some photos of fireless locos yet to come so I'll bet the one you saw will be there. Doubtless (and hopefully!) if they are not Bowaters locos Phil will correct the descriptions.
Martin. I admire and appreciate your efforts with the MN. As I mentioned previously I'll be surprised if Tim didn't take some more photos there so at least we'll have a great start on the location.
The loco can be identified as Bradley and the location is given as Bowaters, 1964. However, I can't find Bradley in the list of Bowater's locos so wonder if this is at Reed Paper and Board too.
Edit: Bradley was Peckett works no. 1950 and worked at Northfleet Deep Water Wharf & Storage Company.
Two shots here from inside the cab of a loco which looks to definitely be one of the Sittingbourne narrow gauge locos probably at Ridham Dock but I don't know which one. It could, perhaps, be Chevallier. Date again is 1964.
This looks to me to again be Chevallier at Ridham Dock, 1964. See post #2455 above for details.
Brian
Phil - I'm in your debt. Tim had identified all these as Bowaters and I took this at face value. Your corrections are really important, will be added to the files on these photos and I'll edit the commentary accordingly.
Simon - there's some photos of fireless locos yet to come so I'll bet the one you saw will be there. Doubtless (and hopefully!) if they are not Bowaters locos Phil will correct the descriptions.
Martin. I admire and appreciate your efforts with the MN. As I mentioned previously I'll be surprised if Tim didn't take some more photos there so at least we'll have a great start on the location.
The loco can be identified as Bradley and the location is given as Bowaters, 1964. However, I can't find Bradley in the list of Bowater's locos so wonder if this is at Reed Paper and Board too.
Edit: Bradley was Peckett works no. 1950 and worked at Northfleet Deep Water Wharf & Storage Company.
Two shots here from inside the cab of a loco which looks to definitely be one of the Sittingbourne narrow gauge locos probably at Ridham Dock but I don't know which one. It could, perhaps, be Chevallier. Date again is 1964.
This looks to me to again be Chevallier at Ridham Dock, 1964. See post #2455 above for details.
Brian
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AJC
Western Thunderer
Nice - apart from the obvious Bowaters' pictures (I suspect that they're all in and around Chevalier), Bradley was Peckett works no. 1950 and worked at Northfleet Deep Water Wharf & Storage Company. There's a shot here:
And another here:
Adam
Peckett Locomotives at Work
www.martynbane.co.uk
And another here:
Adam
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oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Thank you Adam. Another one for a description edit!
Some more here with doubtless the odd incorrect description here and there thrown in.
Out of order for sure but I'll bung this one in the mix.
Towyn Wharf 1965. I think the loco may be Dolgoch again which we saw in post #2453.
Back to Industrials.
This is identified as Fireless 0-4-0 Marion at Bowaters Railway System in 1964. However it's another I can't find on the list of Bowaters locos.
Edit: 'Marion' was a O&K Fireless (works no. 4708 of 1911), which worked at Imperial Paper Mills, Gravesend, Kent.
I think this one is right, though. Bowaters Railway System narrow gauge loco shed at Sittingbourne in 1964. I can't identify the locos.
Edit: Later photos, yet to appear, suggest that the two locos on the right may be Leader and Mellior but I can't identify for certain t'other from which. However, details such as the oil cans on the footplate suggest it's Leader in front and Mellior behind. Both are Kerr Stuart 0-4-2STs. Leader is No 926 of 1905 and Mellior No 4219 of 1924 and both remain on the preserved S & KLR.
Edit: The loco in front and outside the shed is MELIOR (one 'L'), the other three KS 0-4-2Ts had the bottom corners of the front buffer beam cut away at 45 degrees.
Brian
Some more here with doubtless the odd incorrect description here and there thrown in.
Out of order for sure but I'll bung this one in the mix.
Towyn Wharf 1965. I think the loco may be Dolgoch again which we saw in post #2453.
Back to Industrials.
This is identified as Fireless 0-4-0 Marion at Bowaters Railway System in 1964. However it's another I can't find on the list of Bowaters locos.
Edit: 'Marion' was a O&K Fireless (works no. 4708 of 1911), which worked at Imperial Paper Mills, Gravesend, Kent.
I think this one is right, though. Bowaters Railway System narrow gauge loco shed at Sittingbourne in 1964. I can't identify the locos.
Edit: Later photos, yet to appear, suggest that the two locos on the right may be Leader and Mellior but I can't identify for certain t'other from which. However, details such as the oil cans on the footplate suggest it's Leader in front and Mellior behind. Both are Kerr Stuart 0-4-2STs. Leader is No 926 of 1905 and Mellior No 4219 of 1924 and both remain on the preserved S & KLR.
Edit: The loco in front and outside the shed is MELIOR (one 'L'), the other three KS 0-4-2Ts had the bottom corners of the front buffer beam cut away at 45 degrees.
Brian
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AJC
Western Thunderer
Another one for 'not every paper mill was Bowaters' (and Tim was not the only person to get confused about that). 'Marion' was a O&K Fireless (works no. 4708 of 1911), which worked at Imperial Paper Mills, Gravesend, Kent. Nice Gordon Edgar picture here:
Adam
PS - not to be confused with the Empire Paper Mills at Greenhithe, which also had an O&K fireless loco:
Adam
PS - not to be confused with the Empire Paper Mills at Greenhithe, which also had an O&K fireless loco:
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It was 1985 when I visited Empire Paper Mills. A fascinating system with a T shaped dock on the Thames and a circular track right around the works.
The pier was all wood laid at 45 degrees with the track pinned direct to the woodwork. Even in late 1985 it was purchasing new mineral wagons - brought down from the north east by ship.
Empire Paper Mills, Kent
This collection includes internal user wagons, general scenes of this fascinating site with wharfs out into the river Thames and a locomotive. Details of some of the Mineral wagons can be found in appropriate collections for the type of wagon. Search using the wagon number provided here. A...
paulbartlett.zenfolio.com
Paul
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PhilH
Western Thunderer
Brian,
The loco in front and outside the shed is MELIOR (one 'L'), the other three KS 0-4-2Ts had the bottom corners of the front buffer beam cut away at 45 degrees.
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Adam - once again many thanks for confirming the info regarding that fireless loco.
Thank you, Paul, for that helpful background about Empire Paper Mills, and you recollections of Towyn, Larry.
Thanks again, Phil, for putting my surmises about which loco is which right.
Bowaters Paper Mills and outside the loco shed in 1965 is KS 0-4-2ST Melior - details above.
Again at Bowaters and outside the loco shed in 1965 is KS 0-4-2ST Leader. Details again are above.
I now know that this one is not at Sittingbourne but probably is 1965. I'm repeating here the information provided earlier by Phil. NELSON was an 0-4-0ST built by Peckett, Works No.1880 of 1935, ex the same company's Aylesford Paper Mills, New Hythe, in February 1959. The name was painted on the saddle tank rather than a cast nameplate. This loco was scrapped in March 1970.
Brian
Thank you, Paul, for that helpful background about Empire Paper Mills, and you recollections of Towyn, Larry.
Thanks again, Phil, for putting my surmises about which loco is which right.
Bowaters Paper Mills and outside the loco shed in 1965 is KS 0-4-2ST Melior - details above.
Again at Bowaters and outside the loco shed in 1965 is KS 0-4-2ST Leader. Details again are above.
I now know that this one is not at Sittingbourne but probably is 1965. I'm repeating here the information provided earlier by Phil. NELSON was an 0-4-0ST built by Peckett, Works No.1880 of 1935, ex the same company's Aylesford Paper Mills, New Hythe, in February 1959. The name was painted on the saddle tank rather than a cast nameplate. This loco was scrapped in March 1970.
Brian
Yorkshire Dave
Western Thunderer
As an aside Croxley Mills (John Dickinson/DRG (Dickinson Robinson Group)) also had a small railway system. With a Peckett and Andrew Barclay steam locomotives - all appropriately named Croxley or Croxley Mills.
In fact I didn't realise there were seven papermills in and around Hemel during variuos periods of history - Two Waters Mill, Frogmore Mill, Apsley Mill, Nash Mill, Home Park Mill, Croxley Mill and Batchworth Mill.
In fact I didn't realise there were seven papermills in and around Hemel during variuos periods of history - Two Waters Mill, Frogmore Mill, Apsley Mill, Nash Mill, Home Park Mill, Croxley Mill and Batchworth Mill.
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
That's really close to home for me, David, if a bit off piste for this thread. But it's well known that I like to go off piste given any opportunity. Who's never heard of Basildon Bond writing paper? John Dickinson were incredibly powerful in the late 19th and early 20th century and actually had he canal moved past their works. The original route ran across the road from our house and the site of one of the pounds could still be seen.
When first married (50 + years ago) we bought a house in Nash Mills which was a settlement built around the mill. My abiding memory is complaining to the mill manager every few weeks when the mill put out a load of smuts from the boilers which went all over the washing. It never was resolved. I walked to work in Hemel Hempstead along the canal, past Apsley Mill (the envelope factory where our neighbours worked), but that was after the walk I used to make to Apsley Station on a footpath through the mill for the train to town. I took some black & white photos of the mills from the canal - I still have them for sure but I don't know exactly where. I photographed the chimneys at Home Park as they were demolished. All the mills were demolished some years ago after we'd left and are now housing estates although some of the buildings, including the mill manager's still exist. That's in the middle of an estate and last I heard was sadly derelict. The main entrance to Apsley Mills has been retained as part of the new development.
I didn't know about the railway at Croxley Mills. Wish I had!
For more information about the John Dickinson mills there's a book called The Endless Web by Joan Evans - I seem to remember that she was the daughter or grand-daughter of the mill manager - our neighbours were Evans too.
Brian
When first married (50 + years ago) we bought a house in Nash Mills which was a settlement built around the mill. My abiding memory is complaining to the mill manager every few weeks when the mill put out a load of smuts from the boilers which went all over the washing. It never was resolved. I walked to work in Hemel Hempstead along the canal, past Apsley Mill (the envelope factory where our neighbours worked), but that was after the walk I used to make to Apsley Station on a footpath through the mill for the train to town. I took some black & white photos of the mills from the canal - I still have them for sure but I don't know exactly where. I photographed the chimneys at Home Park as they were demolished. All the mills were demolished some years ago after we'd left and are now housing estates although some of the buildings, including the mill manager's still exist. That's in the middle of an estate and last I heard was sadly derelict. The main entrance to Apsley Mills has been retained as part of the new development.
I didn't know about the railway at Croxley Mills. Wish I had!
For more information about the John Dickinson mills there's a book called The Endless Web by Joan Evans - I seem to remember that she was the daughter or grand-daughter of the mill manager - our neighbours were Evans too.
Brian
76043
Western Thunderer
Frogmore Mill still exists as a museum/specialist paper manufacturers. But seems to sadly had a fire in 2022.
frogmorepapermill.org.uk
I did live nearby but never got to visit sadly.
Tony
Home - Frogmore Paper Mill
We are fundraising Since the devastating fire in January 2022, we’ve been overwhelmed by your response. Thank you to everyone who has offered to support us so far. Donate now WE ARE CLOSED TO VISITORS – but happy to receive orders for paper sales View Paper Orders
frogmorepapermill.org.uk
I did live nearby but never got to visit sadly.
Tony
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Quite right, Tony. Apparently the culprit, a 14 year old, was caught. What has happened to him since I've no idea.
In fact Frogmore was, as far as I remember, never one of the Dickinson group mills but was owned or leased by the British Paper Company. (I've subsequently learned that JD had an interest in the mill towards the end of the 19th century). It's the oldest mechanised paper mill in the world and from that point of view alone the fire is a tragedy. It was where the Fourdrinier Brothers set up their first mechanised paper making machine.
The paper museum are working to try to repair the damage but I suspect it'll be a long job. It's well worthy of our financial support.
Brian
In fact Frogmore was, as far as I remember, never one of the Dickinson group mills but was owned or leased by the British Paper Company. (I've subsequently learned that JD had an interest in the mill towards the end of the 19th century). It's the oldest mechanised paper mill in the world and from that point of view alone the fire is a tragedy. It was where the Fourdrinier Brothers set up their first mechanised paper making machine.
The paper museum are working to try to repair the damage but I suspect it'll be a long job. It's well worthy of our financial support.
Brian
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
The first today is described by Tim as "Industrial 1965" and is within the Bowaters selection but probably not there. Help will be appreciated to identify where this fireless loco was located.
Edit - Thanks to Phil: In 1965 at Reed Paper & Board (UK) Ltd., Empire Paper Mills, Greenhithe, which had an exchange siding with the Southern Railway just east of Greenhithe Station and a rail served river wharf on the Thames.
This shows S/11 Andrew Barclay fireless loco Works No.1561 of 1917, obtained secondhand from Brunner Mond & Co. Ltd., Winnington Works , Cheshire in 1920, and scrapped c12/1971.
We're on somewhat safer ground with the rest of these which are all Bowaters for sure but the locations within the works are unknown.
Help please Phil! The loco here is not identified but I wonder of it's Chevallier again. Bowaters 1964.
Edit: Saved by Phil (again). CONQUEROR 0-6-2T Bagnall Works No.2192 of 1922 at Ridham Dock, sold to McAlpine in 1969, then to the Great Whipsnade Railway the following year. It was sold to Peter Rampton in 1994 to join his extensive private collection of locomotives and has been effectively out of public view ever since. Its now part of the Vale of Rheidol Railway Museum Collection and there are proposals to build a museum at Aberystwyth to display the collection.
This one is rather truncated but is interesting for the view of the rolling stock used to carry staff from Sittingbourne to their working locations. The loco can be identified as Superb, Bagnall 0-6-2T No 2624 of 1940 which happily remains on the SKLR. Photographed on the Bowaters railway at an unidentified location in 1965.
Edit: Probably the outskirts of Kemsley Mill.
Another at an unidentified location within the Bowaters complex in 1964 is Jubilee, a Bagnall standard gauge 0-4-0ST No 2542 of 1936. This is now at the East Anglian Railway Museum.
Edit: The standard gauge Bagnall JUBILEE would be outside the loco shed at Ridham Dock, which was situated to the west of the dock alongside the connection to the BR Sheerness Branch. (Thanks again Phil!)
Another shot of Superb on the Bowaters Paper & Pulp Mills Railway System in 1964.
Brian
Edit - Thanks to Phil: In 1965 at Reed Paper & Board (UK) Ltd., Empire Paper Mills, Greenhithe, which had an exchange siding with the Southern Railway just east of Greenhithe Station and a rail served river wharf on the Thames.
This shows S/11 Andrew Barclay fireless loco Works No.1561 of 1917, obtained secondhand from Brunner Mond & Co. Ltd., Winnington Works , Cheshire in 1920, and scrapped c12/1971.
We're on somewhat safer ground with the rest of these which are all Bowaters for sure but the locations within the works are unknown.
Help please Phil! The loco here is not identified but I wonder of it's Chevallier again. Bowaters 1964.
Edit: Saved by Phil (again). CONQUEROR 0-6-2T Bagnall Works No.2192 of 1922 at Ridham Dock, sold to McAlpine in 1969, then to the Great Whipsnade Railway the following year. It was sold to Peter Rampton in 1994 to join his extensive private collection of locomotives and has been effectively out of public view ever since. Its now part of the Vale of Rheidol Railway Museum Collection and there are proposals to build a museum at Aberystwyth to display the collection.
This one is rather truncated but is interesting for the view of the rolling stock used to carry staff from Sittingbourne to their working locations. The loco can be identified as Superb, Bagnall 0-6-2T No 2624 of 1940 which happily remains on the SKLR. Photographed on the Bowaters railway at an unidentified location in 1965.
Edit: Probably the outskirts of Kemsley Mill.
Another at an unidentified location within the Bowaters complex in 1964 is Jubilee, a Bagnall standard gauge 0-4-0ST No 2542 of 1936. This is now at the East Anglian Railway Museum.
Edit: The standard gauge Bagnall JUBILEE would be outside the loco shed at Ridham Dock, which was situated to the west of the dock alongside the connection to the BR Sheerness Branch. (Thanks again Phil!)
Another shot of Superb on the Bowaters Paper & Pulp Mills Railway System in 1964.
Brian
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Ian@StEnochs
Western Thunderer
A wee bit off topic but a 13 year old has just been arrested and charged with setting fire to Ayr Station Hotel yesterday. A major fire with railway and surrounding roads closed. It looks like the building will now be demolished so no trains for a while.
I despair as under Scottish Government rules under 22s are unlikely to receive any meaningful punishment!
Sorry for deviation but that is another part of our railway heritage gone.
Ian
Barry37
Western Thunderer
The "Weapons" shop in Market Street traded as "The Sussex Armoury" in the late 1960s, and possibly later. Where, if I remember rightly, you could actually purchase a suit of armour (if they had your size).
PhilH
Western Thunderer
The fireless loco is S/11 Andrew Barclay No.1561 of 1917 at Empire Paper Mills, Greenhithe, previously seen in the third photo in Post #2455. The details are exactly the same including the bucket hanging down under the footplate at the front !
The second photo is CONQUEROR 0-6-2T Bagnall Works No.2192 of 1922 at Ridham Dock, sold to McAlpine in 1969, then to the Great Whipsnade Railway the following year. It was sold to Peter Rampton in 1994 to join his extensive private collection of locomotives and has been effectively out of public view ever since. Its now part of the Vale of Rheidol Railway Museum Collection and there are proposals to build a museum at Aberystwyth to display the collection.
The third photo I would guess is at or on the outskirts of Kemsley Mill.
The standard gauge Bagnall JUBILEE would be outside the loco shed at Ridham Dock, which was (if I remember correctly - it was over 60 years since I was there !) situated to the west of the dock alongside the connection to the BR Sheerness Branch, as indicated by the red arrow in the plan below.
Extract from 6" OS map courtesy of the National Library of Scotland collection.