Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[oldravendale]

Thanks for the further confirmation of locations, Dave @Yorkshire Dave and to Martin @Martin Shaw for the question about Haywards Heath. I appreciate your signalling comment too, Tim @timbowales .
Thanks, Brian @2-Bil . I suspected there'd be something in this last set of pictures which may attract your attention!

I'm pleased to say that I've now either added correcting details to the commentaries or separated the comments out in to a separate file. It took a while but is well worth the effort. However, for now we're back to more standard fare.

Seen previously in post #3036 is A4 60008 Dwight D Eisenhower on a down Newcastle train at Potters Bar on 23rd June 1962. At the time of the photo this was a Kings Cross engine and had been since October 1957. It moved to New England in June 1963 and was withdrawn in July the same year. (SLS). On 27th April 1964 it was shipped to the USA and is now in the museum at Green Bay, Wisconsin. See 60008 Dwight D Eisenhower (LNER 4496, LNER 598, LNER 8 & BR 60008)



Britannia 70040 Clive of India on a down Cleethorpes train at Potters Bar on 23rd June 1962. Seen previously in posts #2502 and #2671 70040 was an Immingham engine since December 1960, moving to Carlisle Upperby in December 1963 and then Kingmoor in March 1964 where it was withdrawn in April 1967. (SLS). It went to J McWilliams, Shettleston where it was scrapped in November. (BR Database).



This loco was previously in post #1435. A3 60109, Hermit on a down Leeds train at Potters Bar on 23rd June 1962. It was fitted with the trough smoke deflectors in January 1961. It was a Kings Cross loco from April 1959 from where it was withdrawn at the end of December 1962. (BR Database and SLS). It went to Doncaster for disposal which was completed in early April 1963. (Rail UK)



Brian

 

[oldravendale]

A4 60032 Gannet on an up Newcastle train at Potters Bar on 23rd July 1962 and previously in post #3012. This had been a Kings Cross engine since June 1950 and went to New England in June 1963 from where it was withdrawn in October the same year. (SLS). It then went to Doncaster where it was scrapped in December. (BR Database).



A4 60017 Silver Fox on an up Peterborough train at Potters Bar on 23rd June 1962. This loco has featured previously in post #2971. At the time of the photo it was a resident of Kings Cross where it had lived since new in December 1935, moving to New England in June 1963 and being withdrawn in October. (SLS). It went to Doncaster Works for disposal which was completed by the year end. (BR Database).



A4 60028 Walter K Whigham on a down Kings Cross to Niddrie fitted freight at Potters Bar on 23rd June 1962. The loco had been allocated to Kings Cross since May 1948 and was withdrawn in December 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at Doncaster Works in January 1963. (BR Database).



60061 Pretty Polly on an up express at Potters Bar on 23rd June 1962. It was seen last in post #2810 and before that in #1954. It was a Kings Cross engine in November 1959 but moved to Grantham in June 1963 and was withdrawn in October. It had received trough deflectors in February 1962. (SLS). BR Database report it as in Doncaster Works in September 1963 which was probably when the decision to withdraw it was made. It was scrapped in October at Doncaster Works. The Railway Observer report it as being in the works yard on 6th October 1963.



Brian

 

[Dave Holt]

Wow. That's a fair stack of coal on 60028. Looks to be out of loading gauge to me. Still, they needed enough to complete the duty, I suppose.
Dave.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Wow. That's a fair stack of coal on 60028. Looks to be out of loading gauge to me. Still, they needed enough to complete the duty, I suppose.
Dave.

If it was out of loading gauge it managed to squeeze through both the down slow line single bore tunnels at Wood Green and Barnet.

Perhaps the former trimmed the tender?

 

[oldravendale]

I agree - that indeed looks like an over full tender. We've seen a similar situation previously on an A3, I think at Kings Cross, but without doing a picture search I can't immediately locate it. And you may well be correct, Dave! Tim recalled a situation where he was linesiding on the East Coast and a lump of coal came off the tender of a loco and flew past his ear. He'd have been brained!

Previously in post #2420 is WD 2-8-0 90253 on a down freight at Oakleigh Park on 6th July 1962. It had been a New England engine since August 1950, being withdrawn from there at the end of December 1962. (SLS). It went to T W Ward, Beighton, where it was scrapped in May 1963. (BR Database).



Seen on this thread many times previously including post #3517 is A4 60022 Mallard on an up Leeds train at Oakleigh Park on 6th July 1962. It was a Kings Cross engine from April 1948 being withdrawn from there in April 1963. Its life thereafter is well documented elsewhere. See 60022 Mallard (LNER 4468, LNER 607, LNER 22, BR E22 & BR 60022)



A3 60085 Manna on the up Queen of Scots at Oakleigh Park on 6th July 1962. Manna was a Heaton engine from August 1944, going to Gateshead in June 1963 where it was withdrawn in October 1964. (BR Database and SLS). It was scrapped at Draper’s in Hull (Yeadons) in December the same year. (BR Database).



A2/3 60500 Edward Thompson is on the 6.17pm Peterborough train at Oakleigh Park on 6th July 1962. It's been in these pages a few times, for example in posts #2019 and #2549. It was a New England loco from June 1950 and was withdrawn in June 1963. (SLS). It was scrapped at Doncaster Works by the beginning of September. (BR Database).



A1 Pacific 60125 Scottish Union on the down 6.26 York and Hull train on 6th July 1962 at Oakleigh Park has previously been in post #1564. From 1958 it had been a Doncaster engine and was withdrawn from there in early July 1964. (BR Database and SLS). It went from Doncaster to Cox & Danks, Wadsley Bridge where it was disposed of by the end of August the same year. (Rail UK). The SLS record it as still stored at Doncaster in October 1964 so the info on BR Database which advises it as sold to Cox and Danks rather than scrapped in August may be correct.



Brian

 

[oldravendale]

Britannia 70039 Sir Christopher Wren on a down extra at Oakleigh Park on 6th July 1962. Seen previously in post #2017 the loco lived at Immingham from the end of 1960 and in December 1963 went to Carlisle Upperby ending up at Carlisle Kingmoor in March 1964 where it was withdrawn in September 1967. (SLS). It then went to J Mc Williams at Shettleston where it was scrapped by the end of January 1968. (BR Database).



Britannia 70041 Sir John Moore on the down 6.50 Cleethorpes train at Oakleigh Park on 6th July 1962. At the time this was also resident at Immingham and had been allocated there in December 1960. In December 1963 along with 70039 above it went to Carlisle Upperby and in February 1964 to Kingmoor where it was withdrawn in April 1967. (SLS). It then went to J McWilliams at Shettleston where it was scrapped in September the same year.



A view from the train as it leaves Kings Cross with A4 60017 Silver Fox on the 4.21 Peterborough train on 6th July 1962. This loco has featured previously in post #2971. At the time of the photo it was a resident of Kings Cross where it had lived since new in December 1935, moving to New England in June 1963 and being withdrawn in October. (SLS). It went to Doncaster Works for disposal which was completed by the year end. (BR Database).



A3 60046 Diamond Jubilee on a down relief to Leeds at Potters Bar on 22nd December 1962. We've seen it previously in these postings. It was at Grantham in July 1959, then New England in October 1962 and moved back to Grantham in April 1963 where it was withdrawn in June 1963. (SLS). Deflectors were fitted in October 1961. It was seen at Doncaster in August 1963 (SLS) and was scrapped at Doncaster Works in the same month. (Rail UK).



Brian

 

[oldravendale]

A3 60107 Royal Lancer on an up express at Oakleigh Park on 6th July 1962. It was previously seen in posts #2013 and #2028. To repeat the previous info it was at Kings Cross Shed from October 1960, thence to Grantham in June 1963 from where it was withdrawn at the beginning of September the same year. (SLS). It was disposed of at Doncaster Works the following month. (BR Database).



A4 60007 Sir Nigel Gresley on the up Northumbrian at Oakleigh Park on 6th July 1962. We've seen this loco on these posts more times than you could shake a stick at, however it had been a Kings Cross engine since June 1950, moving to New England in June 1963 thence to St Margarets in November and then Aberdeen Ferryhill in August 1964 where it was withdrawn at the beginning of February 1966. (SLS). For information about it's life in preservation see 60007 Sir Nigel Gresley (LNER 4498, LNER 600, LNER 7 & BR 60007)



A3 60061 Pretty Polly was seen last in post #1954 and here it’s on a down relief to Leeds at Oakleigh Park on 6th July 1962. The A3 was a Kings Cross engine in November 1959 but moved to Grantham in June 1963 and was withdrawn in October. It had received trough deflectors in February 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped in October at Doncaster Works. (BR Database). The Railway Observer report it as being in the works yard on 6th October 1963.



Brian

 

[Martin Shaw]

Brian
Mr Yeadon has 60125 Scottish Union as sold to Cox and Danks in August 63, one source of a scrapping date is Steam for Scrap published by Atlantic which gives October 64. That firm appear to have done quite a number of the A1s.
Martin

 

[Roger Pound]

The photo of 60061 did serve to remind me of my trainspotting youth once more, when it was stationed at Neasden in the early fifties and a regular worker of principal turns such as 'The South Yorkshireman' and 'The Master Cutler', along with the other A3's which were allocated to the GC section during that time. Strangely enough, it always eluded me on my visits to the ECML after it was transferred back there. The recent series of ECML pictures that have been posted have been like having a morning's spotting at Grantham in my early teens once more. Full of familiar locos and workings. Thank you once more for the memories....... .

Roger.

 

[Barry37]

The first photo is Haywards Heath looking south with T9 120 at the head of the train.

I would place the second photo between Keymer Junction and Lewes, and say we are approaching Lewes with Lewes Castle on the hill in the background.

We will know when we've reached the Cuckoo Line as it was unelectrified.

The location of the second photo is quite likely north of Lewes - somewhere near Hamsey. The edifice on the skyline is somewhat less historic than Lewes Castle, as it is the 1950s(?) Wallands School. Although I didn't go to school there, due to illness on the proper date, I took the second part of the 11+ at Wallands in 1962.

 

[Barry37]

I agree - that indeed looks like an over full tender. We've seen a similar situation previously on an A3, I think at Kings Cross, but without doing a picture search I can't immediately locate it. And you may well be correct, Dave! Tim recalled a situation where he was linesiding on the East Coast and a lump of coal came off the tender of a loco and flew past his ear. He'd have been brained!

Previously in post #2420 is WD 2-8-0 90253 on a down freight at Oakleigh Park on 6th July 1962. It had been a New England engine since August 1950, being withdrawn from there at the end of December 1962. (SLS). It went to T W Ward, Beighton, where it was scrapped in May 1963. (BR Database).

View attachment 226138

Seen on this thread many times previously including post #3517 is A4 60022 Mallard on an up Leeds train at Oakleigh Park on 6th July 1962. It was a Kings Cross engine from April 1948 being withdrawn from there in April 1963. Its life thereafter is well documented elsewhere. See 60022 Mallard (LNER 4468, LNER 607, LNER 22, BR E22 & BR 60022)

View attachment 226139

A3 60085 Manna on the up Queen of Scots at Oakleigh Park on 6th July 1962. Manna was a Heaton engine from August 1944, going to Gateshead in June 1963 where it was withdrawn in October 1964. (BR Database and SLS). It was scrapped at Draper’s in Hull (Yeadons) in December the same year. (BR Database).

View attachment 226140

A2/3 60500 Edward Thompson is on the 6.17pm Peterborough train at Oakleigh Park on 6th July 1962. It's been in these pages a few times, for example in posts #2019 and #2549. It was a New England loco from June 1950 and was withdrawn in June 1963. (SLS). It was scrapped at Doncaster Works by the beginning of September. (BR Database).

View attachment 226141

A1 Pacific 60125 Scottish Union on the down 6.26 York and Hull train on 6th July 1962 at Oakleigh Park has previously been in post #1564. From 1958 it had been a Doncaster engine and was withdrawn from there in early July 1964. (BR Database and SLS). It went from Doncaster to Cox & Danks, Wadsley Bridge where it was disposed of by the end of August the same year. (Rail UK). The SLS record it as still stored at Doncaster in October 1964 so the info on BR Database which advises it as sold to Cox and Danks rather than scrapped in August may be correct.

View attachment 226142

Brian

Previous over-full tender was A3 60061 Pretty Polly, fourth photo in post #2810.

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks Martin @Martin Shaw for confirmation of the details for 60125, and to Roger @Roger Pound for memories of 60061.

Then to Barry @Barry37 for refining the location of the T9. And then for finding the A3 which I was rather too lazy to properly research. I don't deserve such assistance.

With apologies for no photos yesterday. I was fishing out of Littlehampton for the day. Kept a 15 lb thornback ray which I butchered this morning. Everything else was returned to the water - including a spider crab.

A1 60115 Meg Merrilies on the down 6.12 to Leeds at Oakleigh Park on 6th July 1962. The loco was allocated to Copley Hill, Leeds in November 1960 and withdrawn in November 1962. It went in to Doncaster Works for scrap in May 1963.



An unidentified Lord Nelson on a down van and container train at Clapham Junction on 29th June 1962.



57XX 0-6-0PT 3754 on an up local freight taken from the footbridge just east of North Acton Central Line station on 30th June 1962. The pannier tank had been allocated to Old Oak Common from at least June 1947 (BR Database) and moved to Shrewsbury in July 1963 where it was withdrawn in November 1965. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Great Bridge, on February 1966. (BR Database).



Seen previously in posts #2823 and #4008 is King Class 6001 King Edward VII on a down Birkenhead train at Old Oak Common West on 30th June 1962. The loco had been allocated to Stafford Road since 1954 and was withdrawn at the end of September 1962. (SLS). It was sold for scrap in December the same year and also went to Cox and Danks, Oldbury. (BR Database).



6028 King George VI on an up Birmingham train at Acton on 30th June 1962. It was allocated to Old Oak Common as long ago as December 1948 and was withdrawn in November 1962. (SLS). It was sold for scrap to Birds at Risca in June 1964. (BR Database).



Brian

 

[AJC]

Thanks Martin @Martin Shaw for confirmation of the details for 60125, and to Roger @Roger Pound for memories of 60061.

Then to Barry @Barry37 for refining the location of the T9. And then for finding the A3 which I was rather too lazy to properly research. I don't deserve such assistance.

With apologies for no photos yesterday. I was fishing out of Littlehampton for the day. Kept a 15 lb thornback ray which I butchered this morning. Everything else was returned to the water - including a spider crab.

A1 60115 Meg Merrilies on the down 6.12 to Leeds at Oakleigh Park on 6th July 1962. The loco was allocated to Copley Hill, Leeds in November 1960 and withdrawn in November 1962. It went in to Doncaster Works for scrap in May 1963.

View attachment 226475

An unidentified Lord Nelson on a down van and container train at Clapham Junction on 29th June 1962.

View attachment 226476

57XX 0-6-0PT 3754 on an up local freight taken from the footbridge just east of North Acton Central Line station on 30th June 1962. The pannier tank had been allocated to Old Oak Common from at least June 1947 (BR Database) and moved to Shrewsbury in July 1963 where it was withdrawn in November 1965. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Great Bridge, on February 1966.

View attachment 226477

Seen previously in posts #2823 and #4008 is King Class 6001 King Edward VII on a down Birkenhead train at Old Oak Common West on 30th June 1962. The loco had been allocated to Stafford Road since 1954 and was withdrawn at the end of September 1962. (SLS). It was sold for scrap in December the same year and also went to Cox and Danks, Oldbury. (BR Database).

View attachment 226478

6028 King George VI on an up Birmingham train at Acton on 30th June 1962. It was allocated to Old Oak Common as long ago as December 1948 and was withdrawn in November 1962. (SLS). It was sold for scrap to Birds at Risca in June 1964. (BR Database).

View attachment 226479

Brian

Two nice freight images in that selection - the one with the 'Nelson is lovely, because they're not usually associated with freight, and it's fairly rare to see images of SR trains with lamps in daylight - doubtless @Yorkshire Dave can suggest a route (single lamp at three o'clock?). A fully fitted freight at that with a pair of banana vans interspersed with more usual vanfits and freshly painted insulated meat container in a Medfit which is really very unusual! Normal containers, yes, especially in latter years for the MoD, but I don't recall a meat container like that before.

My favourite is the pannier at North Acton, however. Like the train in post 4018, there are some rarities: BR insulated 12 ton vans (at least two), flanking the signal, and what might be an LMS (or early BR) banana or meat van with a 9' wheelbase and 8 shoe brakes. The Bluebell have what is probably the only survivor of an uncommon type:

Bluebell Railway - LMS Banana Van 570027

www.bluebell-railway.co.uk

.

Adam

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

An unidentified Lord Nelson on a down van and container train at Clapham Junction on 29th June 1962.

Two nice freight images in that selection - the one with the 'Nelson is nice, because they're not usually associated with freight, and it's fairly rare to see images of SR trains with lamps in daylight - doubtless @Yorkshire Dave can suggest a route (single lamp at three o'clock?). A fully fitted freight at that with a pair of banana vans interspersed with more usual vanfits and freshly painted insulated meat container in a Medfit which is really very unusual! Normal containers, yes, especially in latter years for the MoD, but I don't recall a mat container like that before.

The headcode at 3 o'clock is Waterloo or Nine Elms and Southampton Terminus which would explain the banana vans.

Very unlikely to be Waterloo or Nine Elms and Windsor via Twickenham as the train is on the wrong side of Clapham Junction i.e. it would have to be under the signal box on the left.

The headcode on the train under the signal box on the left of the picture (appears to be running tender or bunker first) is a Waterloo to Clapham Junction empty train working.

 

[John Palmer]

#3351: what struck me about the lead vehicle behind the pannier was (1) shape of the axleboxes, (2) apparent offset to the right of centreline of the V hanger, (3) what might be one of a pair of vertical stiffeners on the van's end. All of which prompted speculation that this might be a LNER banana van. If so, it would have to be an example from the comparatively rare diagram 140 (only 75 built to this diagram), in view of the steel underframe. The short rainstrip arrangement would also be consistent with the LNER design (see picture in Tatlow Vol 4A page 158), whereas a rainstrip running the roof's full length appears to have been the more common - though not universal - LMS arrangement.

 

[AJC]

#3351: what struck me about the lead vehicle behind the pannier was (1) shape of the axleboxes, (2) apparent offset to the right of centreline of the V hanger, (3) what might be one of a pair of vertical stiffeners on the van's end. All of which prompted speculation that this might be a LNER banana van. If so, it would have to be an example from the comparatively rare diagram 140 (only 75 built to this diagram), in view of the steel underframe. The short rainstrip arrangement would also be consistent with the LNER design (see picture in Tatlow Vol 4A page 158), whereas a rainstrip running the roof's full length appears to have been the more common - though not universal - LMS arrangement.

Not impossible, but I think unlikely. 1. Axleboxes did get changed, and were more or less interchangeable within RCH specs under BR. The LMS certainly had flat front axleboxes too. 2. The vee hanger is definitely ‘V’ shaped and that was pretty unusual for LNER standard chassis. The angle makes it quite hard to say either way. All that said, I haven’t knowingly seen a picture of an LNER banana van…

Adam

 

[Martin Shaw]

Re the Lord Nelson, the photo caption as opposed to the WT caption says its a boat train which it plainly isn't and is almost certainly a banana special which seemed to be one of the Nelson specialities in their last years. The highest numbered Nelson was 30865 so it can't be 30867. Of the class there were only 6 left in traffic by Jun 62, all Eastleigh allocated, and from the pic which suggests a short nameplate it probably rules out 856 and 862, Lords St Vincent and Collingwood. This leaves the good lords Nelson, Howe, Hawke and Anson, 850/57/860/61, and of these I'm best guessing at 30861 Lord Anson. There was very little visual variation across the class so I think a guess is about the best that can be got.
Martin

 

[AJC]

Re the Lord Nelson, the photo caption as opposed to the WT caption says its a boat train which it plainly isn't and is almost certainly a banana special which seemed to be one of the Nelson specialities in their last years. The highest numbered Nelson was 30865 so it can't be 30867. Of the class there were only 6 left in traffic by Jun 62, all Eastleigh allocated, and from the pic which suggests a short nameplate it probably rules out 856 and 862, Lords St Vincent and Collingwood. This leaves the good lords Nelson, Howe, Hawke and Anson, 850/57/860/61, and of these I'm best guessing at 30861 Lord Anson. There was very little visual variation across the class so I think a guess is about the best that can be got.
Martin

Probably more accurate to say a fully fitted freight train conveying a lot of banana empties (travelling to Soton). The formation is a right old mix:

1. UID open high (Morton brake - you can see the tie bar).
2 and 3, SR type vanfits, both apparently even planked which narrows the range of possible diagrams but not by much! The door catch mech's show them not to be banana vans.
4, 5, 6, banana vans - 5 is a BR standard, the others pre-Nat' design, but I'm not going to commit myself to which.
7. LMS-pattern medfit (wooden) with freshly painted meat container.
8. Conflat with A type container.
9. Banana van of pre-Nat' design.

Behind the gantry more open highs with something under sheets and then an awful lot of vans.

Adam

 

[Martin Shaw]

In hindsight Adam you are probably right, I'm afraid my wagon knowledge is pretty limited, not much beyond open, van, tank, brake which cover most general goods traffic I feel.
Martin

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Re the Lord Nelson, the photo caption as opposed to the WT caption says its a boat train which it plainly isn't and is almost certainly a banana special which seemed to be one of the Nelson specialities in their last years.

Yes, special boat trains from Waterloo to Southampton carried a two disc/lamp headcode of which the position denotes the route taken - one at 12 o'clock and the second one at either 5 o'clock (via Northam) or 7 o'clock (via Millbrook). Assuming the three lamp irons on the buffer beam are read as 5, 6 and 7 o'clock.