Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

Dave Holt

Western Thunderer
In the photo of 34072, the loco to the left (which also appears in the two previous shots) appears to have coal rails so could possibly be an M7 tank, bunker first on empty stock?
Dave.
 

Yorkshire Dave

Western Thunderer
Returning briefly to our tripcock rabbit hole as Arun (@Arun Sharma) and Brian (@oldravendale) have alluded to tripcocks had to be fitted to steam locomotives, diesels and diesel units which traversed London Transport lines.

For the Met I would assume Neasden (ER/LMR) maintained a core of tripcock fitted locomotives purely for the surburban services from Marylebone which traversed the Met&GC line from Harrow on the Hill to Rickmansworth (and Watford) to comply with the London Transport signalling system. There are photographs here showing some locomotives fitted with tripcocks. Neasden - Steve Banks

However, it was not always the case as not all locomotives were fitted with tripcocks. I've come across a LURS publication by Piers Connor (part 30 attached to this post) which implies auxiliary signalling was provided between Harrow and Rickmansworth to cater for the non-tripcock fitted locomotives (and later diesel units). This would account for the main line locomotives on Marylebone services via Harrow and Aylesbury to destinations beyond, and could well include the locomotives used on surburban services. Therefore non-tripcock fitted locomotives and diesel units could travel over this section of line. This obviously did not affect the Aldgate - Liverpool St - Baker St services to Rickmansworth before the changeover to steam haulage to continue to Aylesbury.

When the old class 115 DMUs (originally built in 1962 for the Marylebone services) were withdrawn from service in 1992 a rule came in dictating all new trains coming onto the Amersham-Harrow route had to be tripcock fitted.

With regard to the Paddington (Bishop's Road) surburban platforms 13, 14, 15 & 16 (which included the Met H&C 13 & 16) it was decreed very early on any locomotives (later diesel units) using these platforms had to be tripcock fitted which accounts for the 61xx class. This changed in 1967 when the track layout was altered and the Met used 15 & 16. However, tripcocks were still required to traverse the Met H&C to Farringdon.

LURS homepage is here and there are historical indexes in the Underground News link - you do have to search around a bit. LURS home page
 

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Yorkshire Dave

Western Thunderer
I am always really impressed by this thread and its contributors. Keep up the good work!
How I agree with you, Dave @Genghis . This thread has brought out so many interesting diversions and info from specialists in their fields. I feel this is no longer just a photo album but a potential source of information for those prepared to read all the notes now attached to the photos.

Totally agree, Tim's photos have invited excellent discussions and diversions around the other details contained within them - in some cases more so than the main subject matter.
 

Arun Sharma

Western Thunderer
Returning briefly to our tripcock rabbit hole as Arun (@Arun Sharma) and Brian (@oldravendale) have alluded to tripcocks had to be fitted to steam locomotives, diesels and diesel units which traversed London Transport lines.

For the Met I would assume Neasden (ER/LMR) maintained a core of tripcock fitted locomotives purely for the surburban services from Marylebone which traversed the Met&GC line from Harrow on the Hill to Rickmansworth (and Watford) to comply with the London Transport signalling system. There are photographs here showing some locomotives fitted with tripcocks. Neasden - Steve Banks

However, it was not always the case as not all locomotives were fitted with tripcocks. I've come across a LURS publication by Piers Connor (part 30 attached to this post) which implies auxiliary signalling was provided between Harrow and Rickmansworth to cater for the non-tripcock fitted locomotives (and later diesel units). This would account for the main line locomotives on Marylebone services via Harrow and Aylesbury to destinations beyond, and could well include the locomotives used on surburban services. Therefore non-tripcock fitted locomotives and diesel units could travel over this section of line. This obviously did not affect the Aldgate - Liverpool St - Baker St services to Rickmansworth before the changeover to steam haulage to continue to Aylesbury.

When the old class 115 DMUs (originally built in 1962 for the Marylebone services) were withdrawn from service in 1992 a rule came in dictating all new trains coming onto the Amersham-Harrow route had to be tripcock fitted.

With regard to the Paddington (Bishop's Road) surburban platforms 13, 14, 15 & 16 (which included the Met H&C 13 & 16) it was decreed very early on any locomotives (later diesel units) using these platforms had to be tripcock fitted which accounts for the 61xx class. This changed in 1967 when the track layout was altered and the Met used 15 & 16. However, tripcocks were still required to traverse the Met H&C to Farringdon.

LURS homepage is here and there are historical indexes in the Underground News link - you do have to search around a bit. LURS home page
Thanks for that Dave. I had never seen a photo of a Standard 4MT with a tripcock before -

Screenshot 2024-10-29 224904.jpgThe device is in its usual position - forward on the engine's offside and no doubt the nearside of its tender will have one at the rear.
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Thanks for the clarification about the putative Smithfield train, Tony @76043 .

Arun and Dave @Yorkshire Dave - thank for continuing the discussion about tripcocks. I'd really never thought the question of the GCR express services and locos through... I had always thought that any train using the London Transport tracks would have to be tripcock fitted but that may have been difficult to accomplish with the variety of locos used on the long distance passenger and freight trains. It was probably "All trains using London Transport tracks must be fitted with tripcocks (except those which aren't)" As you say, Dave, the signalling out to Rickmansworth must have allowed for this. I believe that I've not previously seen a tripcock fitted tender loco, Arun.

Les @Les Golledge - That's a potential rabbit hole!

Thank you for some more wagonry info, John @John Palmer and Barry @Barry37 .

Also to Dave @Yorkshire Dave for expanding and correcting the Clapham Junction information. Changes will be made!

Dave @Dave Holt - I'm not so sure about that being an M7 although you may be correct. Unfortunately Tim doesn't mention it but, if an M7 it was I'd be quite surprised that Tim didn't photograph it.

Original West Country 34043 Coombe Martin on a down Bournemouth train at Clapham Junction on 29th June 1962. The loco was allocated to Bournemouth from February 1955 and withdrawn in June 1963. (SLS). It was then seen at Eastleigh Works by the Railway Observer and partially cut up in the erecting shop on 7th September 1963 (SLS) and finally cut up week ending 14th September 1963. (RO). The empty stock train has now moved on!

img3365 Neg Strip 67 34043 down Bournemouth Clapham Jnctn 29 Jun 62 copyright Final.jpg

Rebuilt Merchant Navy 35021 New Zealand Line on a down Exeter express at Clapham Junction on 29th June 1962. However, either this photo or the one above is attributed the incorrect destination as one is said to be Exeter bound and the other is said to have Bournemouth as it's destination and both have the same headcode. 35021 had been a Bournemouth engine since June 1957 and was withdrawn at the beginning of August 1965. (SLS). It was scrapped in October the same year at R S Hayes/Birds, Tremain Yard, Bridgend. (WHTS and BR Database).

img3366 Neg Strip 67 35021 down Exeter express Clapham Jnctn 29 Jun 62 copyright Final.jpg

E4 Class 0-6-2T 32473 on empty stock at Clapham Junction on 29th June 1962. The loco was allocated to Nine Elms in July 1960 and withdrawn in October 1962. This is Birch Grove of the Bluebell Railway – see 32473 (LBSCR 473 Birch Grove, SR B473, SR 2473, BR s2473 & 32473)

img3367 Neg Strip 67 32473 empty stock Clapham Jnctn 29 Jun 62 copyright Final.jpg

Brian
 
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Yorkshire Dave

Western Thunderer
E4 Class 0-6-2T 32473 on empty stock at Clapham Junction on 29th June 1962. The loco was allocated to Nine Elms in July 1960 and withdrawn in October 1962. This is Birch Grove of the Bluebell Railway – see 32473 (LBSCR 473 Birch Grove, SR B473, SR 2473, BR s2473 & 32473)

img3367 Neg Strip 67 32473 empty stock Clapham Jnctn 29 Jun 62 copyright Final.jpg

Interesting photo. The headcode on the E4 is Empty coaching stock trains Waterloo to Walton via Chertsey. Oatlands sidings were to the west of Walton-on-Thames and diagrams which required occasionally used sets/stock was berthed here - Clapham overspill so to speak - to allow Clapham to concentrate on the day to day frequently used sets/stock. The headcode displayed is also for Special boat trains Waterloo to Southampton Docks via Millbrook which is very, very unlikely as the train is on the wrong line.

Underneath the signal box and further gantry in the background between the trains the peaked roof building is the carriage washing plant which in front of stands a carriage set. The first full carriage on the ECS on the right has a roof destination board - shame we can't read it.

Rebuilt Merchant Navy 35021 New Zealand Line on a down Exeter express at Clapham Junction on 29th June 1962. However, either this photo or the one above is attributed the incorrect destination as one is said to be Exeter bound and the other is said to have Bournemouth as it's destination and both have the same headcode. 35021 had been a Bournemouth engine since June 1957 and was withdrawn at the beginning of August 1965. (SLS). It was scrapped in October the same year at R S Hayes/Birds, Tremain Yard, Bridgend. (WHTS and BR Database).

img3366 Neg Strip 67 35021 down Exeter express Clapham Jnctn 29 Jun 62 copyright Final.jpg

Original West Country 34043 Coombe Martin on a down Bournemouth train at Clapham Junction on 29th June 1962. The loco was allocated to Bournemouth from February 1955 and withdrawn in June 1963. (SLS). It was then seen at Eastleigh Works by the Railway Observer and partially cut up in the erecting shop on 7th September 1963 (SLS) and finally cut up week ending 14th September 1963. (RO). The empty stock train has now moved on!

img3365 Neg Strip 67 34043 down Bournemouth Clapham Jnctn 29 Jun 62 copyright Final.jpg

The headcode on these two are Waterloo and Nine Elms and Brockenhurst and Bournemouth West via Sway.

It could have been possible the Exeter train may have been divided at Bournemouth and a portion going on to Exeter but that would have involved a reversal at Dorchester South then via ex-GW metals to Yeovil Junction to pick up the main line to Exeter.

Waterloo - Plymouth trains were more direct to Exeter and would have the relevant headcode as noted on Battle of Britain 34072 257 Squadron in post #4,153.

Also notice in the background of West Country 34043 Coombe Martin (crop from image below) an electric unit (4-SUB?) heading towards Waterloo which is more probable as I don't think it's not far enough on the right (as seen) to be on the ex-LBSC lines to Victoria.

spod2pde.jpg
 

Martin Shaw

Western Thunderer
I had never seen a photo of a Standard 4MT with a tripcock before -
Me neither Arun so I looked up the relative RCTS volume, The ER had 15 of the class 4 2-6-0s allocated to it, in late 1953 76030-34 were sent to Stratford where they were used on cross London freights to Acton and Hither Green and some odd passenger duties. The next batch 76035-44 all went to Neasden in the spring and summer of 1954 and early in 1955 some were fitted with tripcock apparatus. The RCTS doesn't give any numbers and 76035 was reallocated to Hitchin in March 55 so I suspect it was left out but nothing suggests any reason why all the other nine weren't tripcock fitted. When Neasden shed closd in June 62 all nine engines were reallocated to Cricklewood and I think not long after steam workings on the GC/Met ceased. They all moved away from London, six in mid 64 and the remaining ones in Dec of that year.

A further comment says "One of the modification made to most if not all of the Neasden based group was the fitting of tripcock a[pparatus. Known examples were 76035-39", although see above why this may be incorrect. Interesting.
Martin
 

Arun Sharma

Western Thunderer
Arun and Dave @Yorkshire Dave - thank for continuing the discussion about tripcocks. I'd really never thought the question of the GCR express services and locos through... I had always thought that any train using the London Transport tracks would have to be tripcock fitted but that may have been difficult to accomplish with the variety of locos used on the long distance passenger and freight trains. It was probably "All trains using London Transport tracks must be fitted with tripcocks (except those which aren't)" As you say, Dave, the signalling out to Rickmansworth must have allowed for this. I believe that I've not previously seen a tripcock fitted tender loco, Arun.

Brian - probably the most numerical tripcock fitted tender engines would have been Stratford's J15s which were used to run over the Central Line from Loughton Junction [i.e., the Leyton end of Temple Mills yard] to Ongar. As these engines were commonly run tender first, it was quite normal for the nearside tripcock to be fitted to the tender.
As far as 'foreign express engines' go, don't forget that Neasden Shed [GCR not LT] used to host the visiting locos that hauled the Cup Final trains for Wembley. I would doubt that any of these engines would have been fitted with a tripcock for a single journey.
 

Yorkshire Dave

Western Thunderer
I believe for a while the Neasden (later Cricklewood?) based standard 4 2-6-0s worked the goods services where goods yards still existed such as Pinner, Northwood, Watford and Amersham until their closures towards the end of 1966. Hence the rquirement for tripcocks.

There is a photo in Brian's (@oldravendale) thread An Unusual Collection of 76044 shunting at Amersham - and reproduced below. A tripcock, if fitted, would be on this side of the tender chassis.

img391 Mid right pic is identified as Croxley Green Junction - Copy (4).jpg

This thread also has photos of the early years and part construction of the Rickmansworth to Amersham and Chesham electrification.
 
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oldravendale

Western Thunderer
There's something about that photo of the E4 which makes for a rather satisfying composition. It shouldn't - there's so much jumble and distraction but perhaps that's what makes it satisfactory. It is representative, after all, of how the railways were in the early 1960s. Anyway, thanks for your thoughts about it, Dave @Yorkshire Dave and without your info I'd not have known there was a carriage washing plant there. I'll keep your image crop with the main photo and additional description. Thanks too for the comments about those probable Bournemouth trains. It'll help the description to add the bit about the potential use of the headcode on an Exeter bound train.

Martin @Martin Shaw , Mick @mickoo , Arun and Dave again - thanks for the further info about tripcock fitted locos. You make a good point about the ER J15s which I'd not previously considered. Also about trains coming "up for the cup". As for that 2-6-0 at Amersham - I'd entirely forgotten about that image!

Black 5 44909 on a down relief Manchester train at Tring Station on 14th July 1962. Previously in posts #944 and #2658 44909 had been a resident of Rugby since 1948, moving to Bletchley in February 1965 and then Rose Grove in July the same year. (SLS). It was withdrawn in September 1967 going to Cashmore's Great Bridge where it was disposed of by February 1968. (BR Database).

The changes at Tring Station are enormous – in fact the station itself is unrecognisable. Fortunately the cottages which front onto the station remain and look much the same as does the hotel by the entrance to the station so it retains a sense of place but is now entirely forgettable in architectural terms.

img3374 Neg Strip 68 44909 down relief Manchester Tring Stn 14 Jul 62 copyright Final.jpg

Princess Coronation 46240 City of Coventry on a down Llandudno and Holyhead train at Tring on 14th July 1962. At the time this was a Camden engine where it had been since at least 1948 (BR Database), moving to Willesden in September 1963 and finally Crewe North in September 1964 where it was withdrawn only a week after arrival. (SLS). It went to Cashmore's Great Bridge where it was scrapped in December. (BR Database).

img3375 Neg Strip 68 46240 down Llandudo & Holyhead Tring Stn 14 Jul 62 copyright Final.jpg

Tim’s notes call this an unidentified Jubilee but it’s clearly Black 5 45002 on a down Birmingham train at Tring Station on 14th July 1962. The loco was a resident at Crewe South from September 1961 and was withdrawn in July 1965. (SLS). It was scrapped in April 1966 (BR Database) at Buttigieg’s, Newport. (RO).

img3376 Neg Strip 68 Unknown Jubilee actually 45002 down Birmingham Tring Stn 14 Jul 62 copyri...jpg

Royal Scot 46167 The Hertfordshire Regiment on a down relief to Holyhead at Tring Station on 14th July 1962. The loco was allocated to Crewe North in June 1962, then Holyhead in October the same year, Crewe North again in March, Holyhead in May, Willesden in July and Annesley in October – all in 1963 – before withdrawal in April 1964. (SLS). It was seen at Annesley in store on 17th May and then at Crewe Works at the end of May 1964 (WHTS) and BR Database report it as as scrapped in the same month.

img3377 Neg Strip 68 46167 down relief Holyhead Tring Stn 14 Jul 62 copyright Final.jpg

Brian
 

Barry37

Western Thunderer
Interesting photo. The headcode on the E4 is Empty coaching stock trains Waterloo to Walton via Chertsey. Oatlands sidings were to the west of Walton-on-Thames and diagrams which required occasionally used sets/stock was berthed here - Clapham overspill so to speak - to allow Clapham to concentrate on the day to day frequently used sets/stock. The headcode displayed is also for Special boat trains Waterloo to Southampton Docks via Millbrook which is very, very unlikely as the train is on the wrong line.

Underneath the signal box and further gantry in the background between the trains the peaked roof building is the carriage washing plant which in front of stands a carriage set. The first full carriage on the ECS on the right has a roof destination board - shame we can't read it.





The headcode on these two are Waterloo and Nine Elms and Brockenhurst and Bournemouth West via Sway.

It could have been possible the Exeter train may have been divided at Bournemouth and a portion going on to Exeter but that would have involved a reversal at Dorchester South then via ex-GW metals to Yeovil Junction to pick up the main line to Exeter.

Waterloo - Plymouth trains were more direct to Exeter and would have the relevant headcode as noted on Battle of Britain 34072 257 Squadron in post #4,153.

Also notice in the background of West Country 34043 Coombe Martin (crop from image below) an electric unit (4-SUB?) heading towards Waterloo which is more probable as I don't think it's not far enough on the right (as seen) to be on the ex-LBSC lines to Victoria.

View attachment 226659
In the E4 photo, the conductor rail in the foreground has protective wooden boards. Unusually (or is it?) the right-hand one next to the running rail appears to continue almost to the single slip. Perhaps there was a requirement to walk in the "Four foot" to oil point locks, or similar.

As an aside, re 3rd rail, someone once turned up at Worthing station ticket office, slightly intoxicated, and stated that there was no power in the third rail. He had circumstantial dirt/grease marks on his hands to prove contact.
Must've had well-insulated shoes.
 

Scanlon

Western Thunderer
Further to Barry's post, in the late 1970's the lines through Crystal Palace were being converted to multiple aspect signalling. A friend of mine was working in Crystal Palace tunnel on a section box or something similar when his boss came up and patted him on the back. He then told my friend he was just about to isolate the third rail even though he was sitting on it! Thank goodness for rubber soles on his toetector boots!
 

JimG

Western Thunderer
My father was chief electrician at the large distillery in my home town. In the electrician's workshop there was a long workbench along one wall with wooden duckboards on the floor and a switchboard on the wall above the bench. I always remember the two large brass butterfly nutted terminals at the bottom of this switchboard which were always live and carried 240V mains to which the electricians could couple bits of equipment for test. - with bare hands. :) I never tried myself. :)

Jim.
 

simond

Western Thunderer
On our travels in India, I was constantly surprised that more people didn’t die. Live wires sticking out of roadside cabinets was a novelty when we first arrived, and the domestic generator with a “connecting lead of death”, a three pin plug at each end of the flex, so you could plug it into your house mains, when the power went off (most Thursdays). You remembered to turn off the house mains before doing so, as you didn’t want to try to supply the entire State…. You also plugged it in at both ends before starting the genny.

but a chap wiring up garden lights, by twisting wire ends together, whilst live, and whilst standing barefoot in a flooded flowerbed won the star prize. He was sufficiently nonchalant to suggest that this was something entirely normal…
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Indeed, Heather. I guess those water columns were there until the end of steam. There's a slightly nearer one in the photo of 46134 in post #3602 but none of them are sufficiently detailed to model.

Thanks for yours, Barry @Barry37 for the information about the boards - then for stimulating some lovely stories (surely some are apocryphal) for which I thank Roger @Scanlon , Dave @daifly (for thinking it through!), Jim @JimG and Simon @simond .

Seen previously in post # 2658 Black 5 45276 is here on an up extra at Tring Station on 14th July 1962. The Black 5 had been at Willesden since July 1961 and moved to Stoke in September 1963. It was withdrawn in January 1967 (SLS) and was scrapped at Cohens, Kettering, in November. (BR Database).

img3378 Neg Strip 68 45276 up extra Tring Stn 14 Jul 62 copyright Final.jpg

This loco has been seen previously in post #1757 and here is at Potters Bar on the down 6.50 to Cleethorpes train on 7th July 1962. Britannia 70041 Sir John Moore home shed was Immingham and had been since the end of December 1960. It moved to Carlisle Upperby in December 1963, then Kingmoor in February 1964 before being withdrawn in April 1967. (SLS). It was scrapped at J McWilliams, Shettleston, in September 1967. (BR Database).

img3379 TM Neg Strip 68 70041 down 6.50 Cleethorpes Potters Bar 7 July 62 copyright Final.jpg

A4 60025 Falcon which has been seen several times previously much earlier in this thread here on an up Glasgow and Edinburgh train at Potters Bar on 7th July 1962. The loco was allocated to Kings Cross in May 1950, then New England in June 1963 and was withdrawn in October. (SLS). It was scrapped at Doncaster Works in January 1964. (BR Database)

img3380 TM Neg Strip 68 60025 up Glasgow & Edinburgh Potters Bar 7 July 62 copyright Final.jpg

9F 92187 on the 6.32 York parcels at Potters Bar on 7th July 1962. The allocation for this 9F was New England in October 1958 and it went to Colwick in June 1963 where it was stored in January 1965 and withdrawn in February. (SLS). It was scrapped at Draper’s, Hull, in May 1965. (BR Database).

img3381 TM Neg Strip 68 92187 6.32 York parcels Potters Bar 7 July 62 copyright Final.jpg

Brian
 

Arun Sharma

Western Thunderer
Indeed, Heather. I guess those water columns were there until the end of steam. There's a slightly nearer one in the photo of 46134 in post #3602 but none of them are sufficiently detailed to model.

Thanks for yours, Barry @Barry37 for the information about the boards - then for stimulating some lovely stories (surely some are apocryphal) for which I thank Roger @Scanlon , Dave @daifly (for thinking it through!), Jim @JimG and Simon @simond .

Seen previously in post # 2658 Black 5 45276 is here on an up extra at Tring Station on 14th July 1962. The Black 5 had been at Willesden since July 1961 and moved to Stoke in September 1963. It was withdrawn in January 1967 (SLS) and was scrapped at Cohens, Kettering, in November. (BR Database).

View attachment 226770

This loco has been seen previously in post #1757 and here is at Potters Bar on the down 6.50 to Cleethorpes train on 7th July 1962. Britannia 70041 Sir John Moore home shed was Immingham and had been since the end of December 1960. It moved to Carlisle Upperby in December 1963, then Kingmoor in February 1964 before being withdrawn in April 1967. (SLS). It was scrapped at J McWilliams, Shettleston, in September 1967. (BR Database).

View attachment 226771

A4 60025 Falcon which has been seen several times previously much earlier in this thread here on an up Glasgow and Edinburgh train at Potters Bar on 7th July 1962. The loco was allocated to Kings Cross in May 1950, then New England in June 1963 and was withdrawn in October. (SLS). It was scrapped at Doncaster Works in January 1964. (BR Database)

View attachment 226772

9F 92187 on the 6.32 York parcels at Potters Bar on 7th July 1962. The allocation for this 9F was New England in October 1958 and it went to Colwick in June 1963 where it was stored in January 1965 and withdrawn in February. (SLS). It was scrapped at Draper’s, Hull, in May 1965. (BR Database).

View attachment 226773

Brian
Interesting pic - The 9F is AWS fitted. I had an idea that it was quite unusual for a non-Tyne Dock 9F to have AWS. It also shows the three link screw coupling [a SR standard fitting] that the ?Brighton-designed 9Fs were all built with
 
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