Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[John Palmer]

Not impossible, but I think unlikely. 1. Axleboxes did get changed, and were more or less interchangeable within RCH specs under BR. The LMS certainly had flat front axleboxes too. 2. The vee hanger is definitely ‘V’ shaped and that was pretty unusual for LNER standard chassis. The angle makes it quite hard to say either way. All that said, I haven’t knowingly seen a picture of an LNER banana van…

Adam

The point about the shape of the V hanger is a good one, and prompts the further suggestion that this is a former refrigerator van for which the LNER had 357 built to two diagrams - 20 and 21 - with a further 21 built for the CLC and assigned the diagram number 5081. These vans were fitted with symmetrical V hangers (as in the photo), and in many cases had the roof hatches and access ladders with which they were originally equipped removed upon conversion to goods or fish vans.

Another potentially relevant characteristic is the door bumper. Commonly on the LMS vans these were prominent fittings measuring approximately 12" by 2"-3" and mounted at the same height as the middle hinges. No fittings of similar appearance are present on the van under discussion; instead it carries what seem likely to be small door bumpers at the level of the door latching handle - also a feature to be found on the LNER-designed refrigerator vans.

Hard to tell from the photograph, but the impression I get is that the ends were horizontally planked rather than vertically, which would again point to this being an LNER vehicle rather than the LMS design of banana van. In any event, absent a convincing case for the V hanger being on the vehicle's centreline, its apparent offset provides a strong indication by itself that the brake gear is of LNER design.

An interesting and fairly uncommon vehicle, whatever its origin.

 

[76043]

Looks like LNER clasp brake gear to me, short offset brake lever, plus the vertical end stanchions, planking and roof curve looks LNER too. The axle boxes also slope backwards from the bottom upwards, so also look LNE.

Maybe we could ask Brian @oldravendale for a close up scan of the wagons? The BR insulated vans also look interesting.

Could this be a train destined for Smithfield?

It's always fun identifying the wagons.
Tony

 

[oldravendale]

An interim reply with a blow up of the nearest wagons on that train. I hope for time to post some more photos and respond to comments later...



Brian

 

[oldravendale]

All that info and discussion about the freight wagons is of value, so thank you to Adam @AJC , John @John P and Tony @76043 . I hope the blow up enables you to get a bit more detail out of the picture.

Thanks again to Dave @Yorkshire Dave for the headcode information.

Then Martin @Martin Shaw - It was very obvious that the details attached to that photo of the Lord Nelson were incorrect which is why I created the commentary you saw. I actually rely on the expanded info which I keep in "Properties". However the basic info attached to the photo will be amended.

Class W 2-6-4T 31921 with brake van at Old Oak Common West on 30th June 1962. The headcode on the W indicates it has come from the SR central section via the West London Line. The loco was allocated to Norwood Junction in November 1960 and withdrawn from there in June 1963. (SLS). It was scrapped at Eastleigh Works in October the same year. (RO).



Hall Class 4921 Eaton Hall on a down Didcot and Oxford train at Old Oak Common West on 30th June 1962. The loco was allocated to Reading in April 1960 and was withdrawn in September 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped in February 1964 (BR Database) at King’s of Norwich. (WHTS).



Although this rebuilt West Country is not identified I believe it’s 34004, Yeovil. The headcode is for Waterloo or Nine Elms and Plymouth - therefore the train originated at Plymouth. It's at Clapham Junction on 29th June 1962. 34004 was rebuilt at Eastleigh between December 1957 and February 1958 and at the time was resident at Eastleigh where it had been since May 1961, going to Bournemouth in October 1965 where it was withdrawn at the end of steam on the Southern, 9th July 1967. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Newport, in October 1967. (BR Database). This was last seen in these pages as long ago as post #970.



Battle of Britain 34067 Tangmere on a Waterloo or Nine Elms - Plymouth service with 2-BIL unit 2019 running in to the platform at Clapham Junction on 29th June 1962. The Battle of Britain has been seen previously several times including posts #3145 and #3175. It was allocated to Salisbury from Stewarts Lane at the end of May 1961 and was withdrawn on 2nd November 1963. (SLS). There is advice that it was allocated to Exmouth Junction in September 1963 where it was immediately withdrawn. (Preserved British Steam Locomotives). In any event it went to Woodhams in Barry in April 1965. It came out of the scrapyard in January 1981 and further details can be seen in 34067 Tangmere (SR 21C167, BR s21C167 & BR 34067)

I understand that the 2-BIL EMUs were withdrawn between February 1969 and March 1970 with one unit going in to the National Collection. (Southern Electric Group).



Brian

 

[76043]

Hi Brian,
Sorry to be a pain, but it's the Pannier freight we are interested in. Still nice to see the Lord Nelson close up too as that sheeted wagon looks interesting, I think I read BR sheets were grey, but that looks quite light grey, complete with white numbers. The fourth wagon looks to me to be a BR banana van, as produced by Hornby Dublo.

Thanks again as lots of interest to those of us into wagonery.
Cheers
Tony

 

[oldravendale]

Oops! Perhaps I should spend some time on the naughty step for not paying proper attention - all the relevant comments are attached to the pannier tank photo as well so there's no excuse! I hope this gives the info you want - there's no lack of interest on my part but I have next to no knowledge about wagons so it's all grist to this particular mill.

Having blown the photo up I note there's a bloody great hair that I failed to paint out! Oh well, back to Photoshop.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Although this rebuilt West Country is not identified I believe it’s 34004, Yeovil. It’s on a boat train at Clapham Junction on 29th June 1962. 34004 was rebuilt at Eastleigh between December 1957 and February 1958 and at the time was resident at Eastleigh where it had been since May 1961, going to Bournemouth in October 1965 where it was withdrawn at the end of steam on the Southern, 9th July 1967. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Newport, in October 1967. (BR Database). This was last seen in these pages as long ago as post #970.

The headcode is for Waterloo or Nine Elms and Plymouth - therefore the train originated at Plymouth.

Battle of Britain 34067 Tangmere on a down Yeovil train with 2-BIL unit 2019 running in to the platform at Clapham Junction on 29th June 1962. The Battle of Britain has been seen previously several times including posts #3145 and #3175. It was allocated to Salisbury from Stewarts Lane at the end of May 1961 and was withdrawn on 2nd November 1963. (SLS). There is advice that it was allocated to Exmouth Junction in September 1963 where it was immediately withdrawn. (Preserved British Steam Locomotives). In any event it went to Woodhams in Barry in April 1965. It came out of the scrapyard in January 1981 and further details can be seen in 34067 Tangmere (SR 21C167, BR s21C167 & BR 34067)

I understand that the 2-BIL EMUs were withdrawn between February 1969 and March 1970 with one unit going in to the National Collection. (Southern Electric Group).

From left to right starting with the important stock...

The 2-BIL with headcode 28 is on a Waterloo - Reading, Aldershot or Farnham via Richmond service. The rear portion is detached at Ascot for Aldershot.

Then the empty stock working first seen in post #4,132 with the Lord Nelson, and a Waterloo or Nine Elms - Plymouth service on the right.

Class W 2-6-4T 31921 with brake van returning to the SR at Old Oak Common West on 30th June 1962. The loco was allocated to Norwood Junction in November 1960 and withdrawn from there in June 1963. (SLS). It was scrapped at Eastleigh Works in October the same year. (RO).

The headcode on the W indicates it has come from the SR central section via the West London Line.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Could this be a train destined for Smithfield?

It would be nice to think so but not with that loco unless it was fitted with a tripcock.

To work to Smithfield ex-GW locos would require a tripcock to be fitted to enable them to traverse the H&C and Met from Paddington to Farringdon.

We need a GW bod/expert to tell us which locos were tripcock fitted.

 

[simond]

Not much chance of seeing it, here’s a clip from GWR.org illustrating the location on a condensing pannier



(A Beginner's Guide to Pannier Tanks)

 

[Martin Shaw]

To add to Simond's post it would appear that there were surprisingly few. The condensing panniers 9700-10 obviously enough and I have found evidence that Old Oak's 94xx panniers 9410-9412 were also equipped, although none of the 15xx class appeared to have ever been so fitted. It may be stating the obvious but any pannier needing a tripcock would have to be vacuum fitted which does impose some selection even if it only eliminates the non fitted ones. I don't know when meat traffic to Smithfield finished but there can't have been much need for WR trains to access the Widened Lines after then. I wonder if the 57xx locos allocated to the SR at Nine Elms ever had tripcocks?
Martin

 

[Arun Sharma]

The most commonly tripcock fitted ex-GWR locos in the '60s would have been the 97xx condensing panniers. However, as built, and for almost all of their lives all the 61xx prairie tanks were tripcock fitted. Oddly enough, 6106 at Didcot isn't tripcock fitted today although it was so fitted when it wore its preserved livery 'for real'.
Trains which operated over the East London line to New Cross and environs also had tripcocks. These would have included some ex-Southern locos. The bulk of tripcock fitted steam locos were ER ones as well as the Fowler condensing locos that operated on the city widened lines.
A complicating feature of GW locos with tripcocks is that they also had to be fitted with ATC equipment which was capable of springing up out of the way when travelling over the centre negative return rail on LT lines.
Afternote: Old Ravendale and Yorkshire Dave will probably know whether the 2-6-4Ts that operated the line from Rickmansworth to Amersham would have had tripcocks - similarly, did the ex-GCR 4-4-2Ts that operated the Chesham shuttle have tripcocks.

 

[Genghis]

I am always really impressed by this thread and its contributors. Keep up the good work!

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks yet again, Dave @Yorkshire Dave for the info about the SR stock and trains at Clapham. Then for the further stuff about the tripcock fitted locos, further enhanced by the comments from Simon @simond , Martin @Martin Shaw and Arun. For my two penn'orth - and Yorkie Dave can probably confirm, The Fairburn tanks on both the ex-GC locals and Met trains north from Rickmansworth and the 2-6-2Ts used on the Chesham Branch must have been tripcock fitted as they had to operate over LT tracks even if only to get as far as Rickmansworth where the loco change occurred for the further journey to Aylesbury (or Chalfont & Latimer for the Chesham branch) neither of which, at that time, were electrified. (The eventual electrification went only as far as Amersham). I believe all the 61XX 2-6-2Ts, at least those at Old Oak Common, were tripcock fitted. Futhermore the Fowler 2-6-2Ts used on the widened lines and many of the ex-GER tank locos were so fitted. With the demise of steam a lot of the London diesel classes were tripcock fitted, for example classes 24/25, 31, baby deltics, 20s and even a few 66s.

How I agree with you, Dave @Genghis . This thread has brought out so many interesting diversions and info from specialists in their fields. I feel this is no longer just a photo album but a potential source of information for those prepared to read all the notes now attached to the photos.

U Class 2-6-0 31639 on a down parcels train at Clapham Junction on 29th June 1962. The headcode is Waterloo or Nine Elms and Southampton Terminus via the main line. The loco was allocated to Eastleigh at the time where it had been allocated in June 1955, moving to Norwood Junction in November 1962 and Guildford in December 1963 where it was withdrawn in June 1966. It then went to Cashmore’s, Newport, where it was scrapped in the following September.

Note the EMU - poss a 4-SUB - on the left and an approaching Bulleid Pacific, or is it the Lord Nelson, tender first on the Waterloo to Clapham ECS?



Seen previously in post #3123 is Standard Class 4 80066 on a down Oxted line train at Clapham Junction on 29th June 1962. The Std 4 2-6-4T headcode is Victoria, Oxted and Tunbridge Wells West via Hever. By May 1961 the loco was allocated to Tonbridge, moving to Eastleigh in June 1962 where it was withdrawn in June 1965. (SLS). It was scrapped at Birds, Morriston, in October the same year. (BR Database). It looks as though that ECS is still waiting....



Original condition Battle of Britain 34072 257 Squadron on a down Waterloo or Nine Elms and Plymouth train as indicated by the headcode displayed at Clapham Junction on 29th June 1962. The loco was allocated to Exmouth Junction in February 1958 and moved to Eastleigh in July 1964 where it was withdrawn in the following October. (SLS). It then went to Woodham Bros at Barry and the story thereafter is in 34072 257 Squadron Empty stock still waiting.



Seen earlier in post #2866 and looking immaculate here is original West Country 34105 Swanage on a down boat train at Clapham Junction on 29th June 1962. This view suggests that the wide cab loco and narrow tender, probably swapped to one of the rebuilt locos is obvious. This is one of the final batch with 9ft cabs. It had been a Bournemouth engine since December 1951, being withdrawn in October 1964 from Eastleigh where it had been allocated in September. (SLS). It arrived at Barry in February 1965. In March 1978 it moved to the Mid Hants. It was restored to steam in 1987. It was under overhaul in 2020 but there was hope that it would be back in service in 2021. I have no more recent info. See 34105 Swanage



Brian

 

[76043]

To be honest, I when I suggested is the train destined for Smithfield, I meant exactly that and not the loco. So my question should have been...

Is it possible that train is destined for Smithfield, if so how would it have got there? Would it have been shunted at another yard after this shot? Is it possible it's going directly even with an engine change?
Cheers
Tony

 

[Arun Sharma]

Further, and more recently, adding to the tripcock story, I believe Chiltern Rails class 165 and 168 DMUs were [and still are] fitted with tripcocks as they still use LT rails.

 

[Les Golledge]

Not much chance of seeing it, here’s a clip from GWR.org illustrating the location on a condensing pannier

View attachment 226555

(A Beginner's Guide to Pannier Tanks)

Have you noticed the handrail and step arrangement for accessing the boiler top, to the right of the step above the footplate is a vertical handrail at the top of which is a step. Beneath the A&T of Great is a horizontal handrail, then a recessed step between Great & Western with a short habdrail on top of the tank. This is the first time I've noticed a recessed step on trhe tank of a GWR loco.
Regards,

Les.

 

[John Palmer]

Thanks again as lots of interest to those of us into wagonery.
Cheers
Tony

Amen to that!

The full brake behind Swanage is of some interest, as it is one of the 360 to D1715 built for the LMS by outside contractors between 1926 and 1930. It is readily identifiable as such by reason of the absence of angle iron trussing that was a characteristic of most LMS carriages. It's possible to narrow down the source of this particular vehicle to one of two possible batches: 50 built by Cammell Laird forming Lot 461 or 30 built by Metro Cammell forming Lot 536. With the exception of one other batch identifiable by prominent riveting (absent here), the remainder were constructed by Birmingham Carriage & Wagon and featured an additional strip above the windows that is also absent from this vehicle.

In image #3554, the brake van being hauled by the 'W' is also of LMS origin, appearing to be one of 950 constructed between 1927 and 1931 to D1657. Those better versed in LMS wagonry than I may be able to confirm (or refute) this identification, as there is just a possibility that it is instead a van to D1940 – which had an appearance broadly similar to D1657 but differed most noticeably in the longer wheelbase: 14' as against the 12' wheelbase of the D1657 vans.

Edited to add that I agree with @76043's identification of the BR designed banana van in the 'Nelson'-hauled train (I think he must mean fifth rather than fourth wagon – it's the fourth van), and I think is flanked on either side by LMS banana vans. On the nearer of these can be seen the door bumpers I previously mentioned, level with the middle door hinge but absent from the lead vehicle in the photo of the pannier-hauled freight. The full length roof rainstrip is also indicative of a LMS vehicle, but not a universal feature, as I took poor quality photographs in the late '60s showing two LMS banana vans at Avonmouth, one having a full length rainstrip, the other a shorter strip spanning the width of the doors only.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Further, and more recently, adding to the tripcock story, I believe Chiltern Rails class 165 and 168 DMUs were [and still are] fitted with tripcocks as they still use LT rails.

The tripcocks on these units will remain until the Met line resignalling is completed and commissioned for ATO.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

U Class 2-6-0 31639 on a down parcels train at Clapham Junction on 29th June 1962. The loco was allocated to Eastleigh at the time where it had been allocated in June 1955, moving to Norwood Junction in November 1962 and Guildford in December 1963 where it was withdrawn in June 1966. It then went to Cashmore’s, Newport, where it was scrapped in the following September.

Note the EMU - poss a 4-SUB - on the left and an approaching Bulleid Pacific, or is it the Lord Nelson, tender first on the Waterloo to Clapham ECS?

From left to right. Definitely a 4-SUB, identified by the full rear white headcode panel and heading towards Waterloo. Probably a Waterloo roundabout service having come off either the Kingston or Barnes loop and heading towards Waterloo. BR/Bulleid built 4-EPB units, although outwardly similar in shape, had a two character roller blind which is one of the main differences (among others) between these and the 4-SUB units

Next are two Waterloo to Clapham Jct ECS workings (one in line with the 4-SUB and the other further back). The U headcode is Waterloo or Nine Elms and Southampton Terminus via the main line.

Seen previously in post #3123 is Standard Class 4 80066 on a down Oxted line train at Clapham Junction on 29th June 1962. By May 1961 the loco was allocated to Tonbridge, moving to Eastleigh in June 1962 where it was withdrawn in June 1965. (SLS). It was scrapped at Birds, Morriston, in October the same year. (BR Database). It looks as though that ECS is still waiting....

We still have our two ECS workings on the left and the Std 4 2-6-4T headcode is Victoria, Oxted and Tunbridge Wells West via Hever.

Original condition Battle of Britain 34072 257 Squadron on a down Southampton train at Clapham Junction on 29th June 1962. The loco was allocated to Exmouth Junction in February 1958 and moved to Eastleigh in July 1964 where it was withdrawn in the following October. (SLS). It then went to Woodham Bros at Barry and the story thereafter is in 34072 257 Squadron Empty stock still waiting.

The headcode displayed indicates a Waterloo or Nine Elms and Plymouth train. Not a boat train.

Seen earlier in post #2866 and looking immaculate here is original West Country 34105 Swanage on a down boat train at Clapham Junction on 29th June 1962. This view suggests that the wide cab loco and narrow tender, probably swapped to one of the rebuilt locos is obvious. This is one of the final batch with 9ft cabs. It had been a Bournemouth engine since December 1951, being withdrawn in October 1964 from Eastleigh where it had been allocated in September. (SLS). It arrived at Barry in February 1965. In March 1978 it moved to the Mid Hants. It was restored to steam in 1987. It was under overhaul in 2020 but there was hope that it would be back in service in 2021. I have no more recent info. See 34105 Swanage

A high probability this is a boat train given the full brake behind the loco. However, we will not know without seeing the headcode.

 

[Barry37]

Amen to that!

The full brake behind Swanage is of some interest, as it is one of the 360 to D1715 built for the LMS by outside contractors between 1926 and 1930. It is readily identifiable as such by reason of the absence of angle iron trussing that was a characteristic of most LMS carriages. It's possible to narrow down the source of this particular vehicle to one of two possible batches: 50 built by Cammell Laird forming Lot 461 or 30 built by Metro Cammell forming Lot 536. With the exception of one other batch identifiable by prominent riveting (absent here), the remainder were constructed by Birmingham Carriage & Wagon and featured an additional strip above the windows that is also absent from this vehicle.

In image #3554, the brake van being hauled by the 'W' is also of LMS origin, appearing to be one of 950 constructed between 1927 and 1931 to D1657. Those better versed in LMS wagonry than I may be able to confirm (or refute) this identification, as there is just a possibility that it is instead a van to D1940 – which had an appearance broadly similar to D1657 but differed most noticeably in the longer wheelbase: 14' as against the 12' wheelbase of the D1657 vans.

Edited to add that I agree with @76043's identification of the BR designed banana van in the 'Nelson'-hauled train (I think he must mean fifth rather than fourth wagon – it's the fourth van), and I think is flanked on either side by LMS banana vans. On the nearer of these can be seen the door bumpers I previously mentioned, level with the middle door hinge but absent from the lead vehicle in the photo of the pannier-hauled freight. The full length roof rainstrip is also indicative of a LMS vehicle, but not a universal feature, as I took poor quality photographs in the late '60s showing two LMS banana vans at Avonmouth, one having a full length rainstrip, the other a shorter strip spanning the width of the doors only.

in the LN photo, the nearer one of the two LMS banana vans has a full length rainstrip, whereas the further one (sixth vehicle) has a shorter one - this van also has external flat braces either side of the doors (as Plate 40 in LMS Wagons Vol.1). The ninth vehicle also appears to be a similar van, with an A-type container in front, presumably on a Conflat. There are probably a couple more banana vans further back, after the five sheeted opens. Quite a long train, in excess of 30 wagons.