Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[John Palmer]

The mineral wagon next to 6974 seems to be numbered P125?23. This lies within the block of numbers allocated to Wagon Repairs Ltd, Chesterfield for the purpose of re-numbering pooled ex-POs passing through their hands (See Vol. 1 of David Larkin's 'Acquired wagons' series, p.10 et seq.). That doesn't greatly aid identification other than slightly raising the possibility that it was a wagon having a Midlands origin, perhaps. This wagon had side, end and bottom doors, and these are covered in Vol.3 Chapter 13 of the Larkin series. I really can't bring myself to look for a likely match in the numbers David has listed in this chapter, but I am struck by the light coloured area on the left hand top part of the side door, and wonder whether this may be a surviving vestige of its former owners' livery. Is it conceivable that this is the lower part of the 'S' in 'Bolsover'? The placement looks about right for this.

 

[Martin Shaw]

70031 Byron, Both Irwell and the RCTS have it wdn 11/11/67, stored Kingmoor to 2/68, cut up McWilliams Shettleston 7/3/68. Notably McWilliams cut up nineteen Britannias between October 67 and March 68, about one week so it didn't take very long beside the rest of what they would have been doing.

4091 Dudley Castle, Irwell also has this as the first Castle to be withdrawn.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Is it conceivable that this is the lower part of the 'S' in 'Bolsover'? The placement looks about right for this.

I appreciate identification would be almost impossible without knowing the disposition of colliery private owner wagons following the nationalisation of the collieries in 1947 and railways in 1948.

I don't think it is likely to be Bolsover though. Bolsover was lettered as an arc on their wagons with the SO at the top of the arc in the top three planks - as seen in this photo at Mansfield Colliery - you have to scroll down the bottom of the page as it's a bus and tram website.

Mansfield District Trams

 

[timbowales]

Dave, that is a delightful rabbit hole!

 

[Barry37]

From other sources on the internet, I think it may be this:

G R Griffin, “What Happened to the Private Owner Wagons?” Journal of The Historical Model Railway Society, Vol 16 No 11, pp 425-428, July 1999.

Cheers

Jan

Probably the one I was thinking of – I was still a member at that time.

 

[46240]

Good afternoon all,

In addition to the ex-PO mystery wagon in the Hall photo, there are also two in the photo of 2222.

One is the ex-SNCF steel mineral wagon type with cupboard doors.
Interestingly it doesn't have the prohibition notice about not loading with ballast or PWay materials that these usually show.

Next to it is a wooden-bodied 7 or 8 plank open wagon, but also fitted with cupboard doors at the top of each side door.
These were, IIRC, typically Scottish, so another example of the pooling system during and after WW2.

Cheers, Nigel.

 

[Barry37]

Good afternoon all,

In addition to the ex-PO mystery wagon in the Hall photo, there are also two in the photo of 2222.

One is the ex-SNCF steel mineral wagon type with cupboard doors.
Interestingly it doesn't have the prohibition notice about not loading with ballast or PWay materials that these usually show.

Next to it is a wooden-bodied 7 or 8 plank open wagon, but also fitted with cupboard doors at the top of each side door.
These were, IIRC, typically Scottish, so another example of the pooling system during and after WW2.

Cheers, Nigel.

It's an ex-SR 8 plank open wagon, probably D1379, built from around 1927 to 1931. This wagon appears to have angled ends to the headstocks - later Bulleid variations had square ends.
It also has floor retention plates added either side of the doors. Floor planks on these wagons weren't fixed down, and had a tendency to slide out.
The cupboard doors needed to be fastened properly – after a door swung open and hit a passenger train, they were prohibited from engineers' use.

 

[46240]

Good evening Barry37,

Thanks very much for the update on the second wagon.

Since posting I dug out my Larkin Acquired Wagons of BR vol 3 and can see a number of wagons with the cupboard door arrangement, including the SR 8 plank wagons.

It seems to be a London/SE feature as well as the Scottish wagons.

Cheers, Nigel.

 

[LarryG]

First Castle to be withdrawn was No.100 A1 Lloyds in March 1950.

 

[simond]

First Castle to be withdrawn was No.100 A1 Lloyds in March 1950.

The irony…

 

[Martin Shaw]

First Castle to be withdrawn was No.100 A1 Lloyds in March 1950.

Strictly speaking your correct Larry however considering how much of a Star class had to be modified to make it into a Castle makes it arguable. 100A1 Lloyds was withdrawn as a result of cracked frames directly attributable to its modification in 1925. I should perhaps have said the first Castle as built, those of us of a Swindon persuasion would consider 4073 as the first Castle and the earlier locos as rebuilt Stars, I'm undoubtedly splitting hairs here.
Martin

 

[Barry37]

Good evening Barry37,

Thanks very much for the update on the second wagon.

Since posting I dug out my Larkin Acquired Wagons of BR vol 3 and can see a number of wagons with the cupboard door arrangement, including the SR 8 plank wagons.

It seems to be a London/SE feature as well as the Scottish wagons.

Cheers, Nigel.

Morning Nigel.
Both the SECR and LSWR had many wagons with top cupboard doors, and the later SR version was an update of the SECR design with a more standard body length of 17' 6". "In between" these two companies, the majority of LBSC wagons were only five planks with a full height door, so no cupboard doors.
The GER had some seven planks with cupboard doors, built about 1910. As a precaution against bowed sides, these wagons had two diagonal straps each side of the doors. The seven plank GWR O2 & O10 wagons also had top doors.

Barry.

 

[simond]

Strictly speaking your correct Larry however considering how much of a Star class had to be modified to make it into a Castle makes it arguable. 100A1 Lloyds was withdrawn as a result of cracked framed directly attributable to its modification in 1925. I should perhaps have said the first Castle as built, those of us of a Swindon persuasion would consider 4073 as the first Castle and the earlier locos as rebuilt Stars, I'm undoubtedly splitting hairs here.
Martin

When you say “splitting hairs”, do you mean longitudinally, or transversely?

 

[Martin Shaw]

When you say “splitting hairs”, do you mean longitudinally, or transversely?

If you can see and hold the wretched thing, any way you please Simon.

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you for further education regarding wagons, John @John Palmer , Dave @Yorkshire Dave , Barry @Barry37 and Nigel @46240 .Those are all useful additions to the information bank.

Thanks too, Martin @Martin Shaw for yours, and in connection with the Castle to Larry as well for raising the A1 at Lloyds issue. Duly recorded for the sake of semantics if nothing else! As for the splitting of hairs... (and that includes you, Simon).

Seen earlier in post #3853 Schools 30911 Dover on an empty stock Kent Coast train at London Bridge on 16th June 1958. It was allocated to Ramsgate from June 1952 and Nine Elms from June 1959 and Brighton from November 1960, Redhill from January 1962, then Brighton again in December the same year where it was withdrawn later the same month. (SLS). The SLS also recorded that it was seen at Eastleigh awaiting Works or scrap in September 1963 and BR Database confirms a scrapping month of September 1963.



Castle Class 4089 Donnington Castle which was in post #3865 on a down express on the GWR main line at Old Oak Common on 19th June 1958. It had been allocated to Old Oak Common in June 1954, moving to Worcester in January 1959, back to Old Oak in August 1960 and Reading in December 1963 and Southall in June 1964 before withdrawal in September the same year. (SLS). It was scrapped at Hayes, Bridgend, in January 1965. (BR Database).



Castle 4088 Dartmouth Castle on a down express on the GWR main line at Old Oak on 19th June 1958. It was at Worcester in April 1958, Swindon in February 1961 and St Philips Marsh in November 1963 where it was withdrawn in May 1964. (SLS). It was scrapped in September 1964 at Cohen’s, Morriston. (BR Database).



Ivatt 2-6-2T 41299 probably acting as station pilot at London Bridge on 16th June 1958 although it carries a duty number on the disc. This was one of the locos never to reach its ancestral home on the LMR, serving the SR for its entire life. It was allocated to Bricklayers Arms in December 1951, then Exmouth Junction in February 1961, Brighton in April 1963, Guildford in June 1964 and Eastleigh in June 1965 where it was withdrawn in October 1966. (SLS). It was scrapped in March 1967 at Cashmore’s, Newport. (BR Database).



Brian

 

[Heather Kay]

Nice to see that rake of Maunsell coaches behind the Schools - in blood and custard livery. Not often seen In the wild.

 

[AJC]

Good afternoon all,

In addition to the ex-PO mystery wagon in the Hall photo, there are also two in the photo of 2222.

One is the ex-SNCF steel mineral wagon type with cupboard doors.
Interestingly it doesn't have the prohibition notice about not loading with ballast or PWay materials that these usually show.

Next to it is a wooden-bodied 7 or 8 plank open wagon, but also fitted with cupboard doors at the top of each side door.
These were, IIRC, typically Scottish, so another example of the pooling system during and after WW2.

Cheers, Nigel.

The ex-SNCF types didn't get that branding immediately (I forget exactly when it came in - the ex-SR 8 planks got something similar - perhaps @Barry37 can remember?), but I think it was about 1960. Photographic evidence suggests that application of the prohibition on the wagons ways relatively quick, but far from instant. That particular wagon also has spoked wheels, which is fairly unusual for the type.

Adam

 

[Dan Randall]

Castle 4088 Dartmouth Castle on an up express on the GWR main line at Old Oak on 19th June 1958. It was at Worcester in April 1958, Swindon in February 1961 and St Philips Marsh in November 1963 where it was withdrawn in May 1964. (SLS). It was scrapped in September 1964 at Cohen’s, Morriston. (BR Database).

Also on a Down express, as per the previous photo Brian.


Regards

Dan

 

[Roger Pound]

Strange to say my first experience of haulage by a GWR loco was by a 22xx on the old Didcot, Newbury and Southampton line whilst on a posting in the RAF. Totally uninspiring performance-wise but what subsequent experience showed this seemed to be the norm for WR local trains at that time.
Now retiring with tin hat on to avoid the wrath of Swindon fans..........!

Roger .

 

[John Palmer]

Nice to see that rake of Maunsell coaches behind the Schools - in blood and custard livery. Not often seen In the wild.

Yes indeed! I have taken a look at Mike King's “Illustrated History of Southern Coaches” with a view to establishing the identity of the set being hauled by Dover.

According to Mike's text, four sets numbered 264-267 were formed in June 1950, mainly from Bulleid stock that had been nominally intended for use as loose vehicles. They were employed on London-Ramsgate services, remaining in those duties until completion of Stage 1 of Kent Coast Electrification in 1959, which is consistent with the photograph's 1958 date and location. I reached the tentative conclusion that the pictured train may well be one of these.

The most likely candidate, subject to one anomaly, appears to be set 265, for which Mike gives the formation as follows (1958 notation): Semi-BSO 3959 SK 41, CK 5868, CK 5869, CK 5870, (?Diagram 2666 Maunsell RB; number unspecified), SK 42, Semi-BSO 3960. The anomaly lies in the fact that the buffet car (the only dark bodied vehicle) is located between the second and third composites, whereas Mike lists these as being contiguous. In all other respects, however, the listed formation is consistent with that to be seen in the photograph, and also seemed most likely to be Set 265 in view of the vehicle totals in each set: 264 was 7-car whilst 266 and 267 were both 10-car, leaving 265 as the only 8-car set.

Is there an expert in South Eastern Division carriage workings who can comment?

Regarding the branding of the ex-SNCF wagons, only this morning I happened to read something suggesting that the accident that gave rise to the prohibition took place in 1961 or thereabouts. I had hoped to locate a report of the incident on the Railways Archive website, but no luck so far.