Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[Martin Shaw]

What do people make of the Mk1 coach behind 45564?

I’m looking at the drop light in the door. Early type door with small radius corners to the window, but with what appears to be a hood of some kind over the top of the window opening. I was not aware of such a structure being fitted to Mk1s but the photograph appears unambiguous.

It's definitely a Mk1. In Keith Parkins book there is a superb photo of one of the Festival of Britain trains and all the vehicles have this what can only be described as an auxiliary rainstrip above each door window opening. I can't find any other info and it seems to have disappeared fairly quickly, no doubt it created a water trap and early corrosion.
Martin

 

[40057]

It's definitely a Mk1. In Keith Parkins book there is a superb photo of one of the Festival of Britain trains and all the vehicles have this what can only be described as an auxiliary rainstrip above each door window opening. I can't find any other info and it seems to have disappeared fairly quickly, no doubt it created a water trap and early corrosion.
Martin

Thank you!

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

One of those “should I or should I not show this” photos but in view of the discussions attached to some of the similar previous postings I’m going ahead. Princess Coronation 46247 entering Euston on The Ulster Express on 14th June 1958. Look at all those train spotters! This loco was previously in post #3787. It had been a Camden engine since building but transferred to Carlisle Kingmoor from June 1961 (SLS). It was ultimately withdrawn from Kingmoor in May 1963 (SLS) and was scrapped by the end of July 1963 at Crewe Works. (Rail UK).

The bottom of the actual subject may have been clipped however this does show the signal bridge from the 1952 resignalling by Westinghouse - only to be swept away 13 or so years later by the post 1965 resignalling with the electrification.

It did lead me down a bit of a rabbit hole and ended up with four NLS OS extracts trying to piece together some of the history. In the photo the bridge behind the signal bridge carried one half of Ampthill Square. The street to the right is Barnby Street.

We can follow the history a bit through the map extracts.

Starting with the 25 inch 1892-1944 series we can see how Ampthill Square occupied two bridges (which I'll label north and south). The one in the photo is the northern one marked Ampthill on the map below.




Coming forward to the 1:1,250 a edition 1944-1973 I reckon this section was surveyed immediately post war but before 1952 as there is no signal bridge shown, there are a couple of ruins marked and Barnby Street has been extended to cut off part of Ampthill square with the southern part of bridge out of use.




Moving onto the 1:1,250 b edition 1948-1973 the southern Ampthill Square bridge has disappeared and the 1952 resignalling signal bridge is now shown. This would have been surveyed before 1965.




The 1:1,250 c edition 1950-1973, surveyed after the 1965 Euston rebuilding, shows the remaining northern Ampthill Square bridge has now disappeared . The housing north of Barnby Street has been replaced by The Ampthill Estate comprising of maisonettes and tower blocks which were approved in 1965. As these are shown on the map this area would have more than likely been partly re-surveyed in the late 1960s early 1970s, probably the latter looking at the typeface on the housing block names. Interesting to note on the left Hampstead Road has been widened to a dual carriageway.

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you for your update regarding the wagons behind 60048, Adam @AJC . Also Andy @AndyB re the narrow gauge wagons. I remember them and had previously considered them as part of the ash removal process but it looks as though they contain coal so probably part of an automated coaling system.

Thanks for the further info about Tagalie and also 69592, Martin @Martin Shaw, and also for confirming the coach in question in the photo of 45564 as a Mk 1.

Thanks too, Dave @Yorkshire Dave for venturing down the Kings Cross rabbit hole. Interesting stuff for those of us who knew the old Kings Cross.

We’ve seen this B1 previously, in post #4211. It’s B1 61393 on an up Cambridge train at Hornsey on 14th June 1958. The loco was allocated to Kings Cross in June 1954, New England in November 1959, back to Kings Cross in February 1960 and Mexborough in June 1963. It was withdrawn in September the same year. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Great Bridge in the same month. (BR Database).



A4 60026 Miles Beevor seen previously in post #1393 and here on a down fitted freight at Hornsey on 14th June 1958. This loco has a particular resonance for me as I saw it on every visit I made to Kings Cross. It was allocated to Kings Cross from September 1951. It moved away in June 1963 to New England and then St Margarets in November 1963 for use on the three hour expresses from Aberdeen to Glasgow eventually ending up at Aberdeen Ferryhill in April 1964 (SLS). It was nonetheless withdrawn in December 1965 (SLS) although disposal took a while as it lasted until September 1967. The story after withdrawal is rather complex but it appears it was sold to Motherwell Machinery and Scrap in February 1966 but the deal was cancelled and the loco returned to Perth in August 1966. By the end of September the loco was at Crewe Works where the SLS report it as seen in the Traverser area on 11th December 1966, 9th January and 19th February 1967 and then in the Works yard on 18th June 1967. Ultimately it was broken up by Hughes Bolckows at North Blyth in September 1967. (Info from SLS and BR Database).



A1 60141 Abbotsford on the up Yorkshire Pullman at Hornsey on 14th June 1958. The loco had been allocated to Copley Hill, Leeds since May 1950 and moved to York North in September 1963 where it was withdrawn in October 1964. (SLS). It was sold for scrap to Draper’s at Hull in December 1964.



A4 60025 Falcon which has been seen several times previously much earlier and again more recently in post #4178. Here it’s at Hornsey on 14th June 1958. The loco was allocated to Kings Cross in May 1950, then New England in June 1963 and was withdrawn in October. (SLS). It was scrapped at Doncaster Works in January 1964. (BR Database)' There's an N2 in the background awaiting signals.



Brian

 

[Dog Star]

Judging by the woman to the left in the last photo then that fence is circa 6'6" high. .. So what is that lad standing on to enable him to see over the top of the fence?

Probable answer, see the photo of the B1 at the start of the post - looks like a road name board. Indeed, one can believe that this trainspotter is in each of the photos and also those of yesterday.

Rgds, Graham

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Thanks too, Dave @Yorkshire Dave for venturing down the Kings Cross rabbit hole. Interesting stuff for those of us who knew the old Kings Cross.

Close, but it's actually the station next door but one travelling west down the Euston Road...

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Here we'll go back to when they were still in their heyday. These are some of the earliest of Tim’s photos so technically most are not perfect but what they lack in technical perfection they make up for in the period feel and often the rarity of the subject matter. They appear late in the scheme of things because one day, when I was showing Tim some scans he asked "Why have you not scanned the frames from film No1?" My reply was that I'd done so but, of course, I hadn't and nor had I dealt with some of the other earlier ones. We hope you'll enjoy these.

Whilst the earlier photographs may not necessarily be technically perfect they do act as historic records by showing areas of London before the 1960s craze of razing everything (well almost) and building (in most cases ill-conceived) 'modern' concrete structures.

 

[Barry37]

Judging by the woman to the left in the last photo then that fence is circa 6'6" high. .. So what is that lad standing on to enable him to see over the top of the fence?

Probable answer, see the photo of the B1 at the start of the post - looks like a road name board. Indeed, one can believe that this trainspotter is in each of the photos and also those of yesterday.

Rgds, Graham

In the earlier photo of 60064, the lady has walked further on, and the lad is still there. he's standing on a sign - probably a street name board on two posts.

 

[oldravendale]

That's very observant of you, Graham @Dog Star . It's one of those little cameos that would add life to a layout, isn't it? Also for yours, Barry @Barry37 . There's clearly a sequence of photos to be dug out of here.

And Dave @Yorkshire Dave - whoops! I was so concentrated on Kings Cross for some reason that my fingers got carried away. Anyway, it's always good when the most unexpected and poor photos when considered in the classical meaning of "poor" produce information which a classic view would not. It makes the publishing of such photos all the more worthwhile. It's funny that you mention the building craze for concrete monstrosities in the 1960s. I was talking to Tim Watson at the "Copenhagen Fields at 40" fest about some of Tim Mills' photos around Kings Cross and we discussed the way that most of those 1960s blocks have been raised already and replaced with more modern and architecturally more acceptable (?) construction. However, people of my generation too easily forget that buildings from the 1960s are, of course, already 50 - 60 years old so probably well past their "sell by" date anyway.

Seen several times previously, for example in post #3451 is A2 60523 Sun Castle at Hornsey on 14th June 1958. 60523 was a New England engine from December 1948, then Grantham in December 1958 and New England again in April 1959 before becoming a Doncaster engine in January 1960. It moved to it's final shed like a homing pigeon, New England, in October 1962 and was withdrawn in June 1963. (SLS). It went in to Doncaster Works for cutting up at the end of August. (BR Database).



J50 68906 with another unidentified (probably 68920 - see below) behind and a J52 (probably 68824) behind that on shed at Hornsey MPD on 14th June 1958. It was allocated to Hornsey in March 1953 and was withdrawn in May 1959. (SLS). It was scrapped at Doncaster Works (Yeadon) but we have no date.



J6 64196 with N2 69521 ahead and an unidentified J50 behind on shed at Hornsey on 14th June 1958. 64196 moved to New England in March 1960 where it was withdrawn in the September. (SLS). It then went to Doncaster Works where it was observed in the scrap yard on 9th October. (RO). It was scrapped later the same month. (BR Database). 69521 had been a Kings Cross engine since at least 1948 and was reallocated to New England in August 1959 where it was withdrawn in June 1961. (BR Database and SLS).It went to Doncaster Works where it was scrapped (RO) although we have no date.



J52 68824 on shed Hornsey MPD on 14th June 1958 with the bunker of J50 68920 in front and another unidentified J50 behind. 68824 was a Hornsey engine from October 1953 and moved to Ardsley on loan in April 1959 and was allocated there in May where it was withdrawn a couple of weeks later. (SLS). It was scrapped at Doncaster Works but no date is stated. 68920 was also a Hornsey engine from October 1952 and moved to Kings Cross in July 1961 where it was withdrawn a week later. (RO, SLS and BR Database). It was scrapped at Doncaster Works but there’s no date. (RO).



Brian

 

[Roger Pound]

It is nice to see some of the 'lesser mortals' of the locomotive (J6, J50 & J52) world in the series in #4289. Like many of my generation who lived through the postwar days of steam, I tended to concentrate on the larger, shall we say more impressive, locos. We saw the other types of locos but tended to look beyond them. But that, I guess, was the way of things - no doubt something to do with human nature!
Just a passing thought here - I have often wondered why none of the 00 model makers ever mass produced a J6. Although I know little about the engineering side of such things, it would seem to have much in common with the J39, which has been produced. Another of those things, no doubt.

Roger.

 

[Arun Sharma]

Just a passing thought here - I have often wondered why none of the 00 model makers ever mass produced a J6. Although I know little about the engineering side of such things, it would seem to have much in common with the J39, which has been produced. Another of those things, no doubt.

Roger.

Looking at the J6 and the J39 with my kit designer's hat on, the answer is fairly obvious. If designing a J6 in P4 or S7, then it would be straightforward. However, in 00 16.5mm, a realistic scale rear splasher would have to be moved so far laterally as to distort the relationship of the splasher, rear driver and the flat plate extension of the descending firebox with the spectacle plate. There are some engines that would probably never be designed in 00 16.5 because of such compromises and the market for ready to run in P4 is miniscule.
Another similar example is the LBSCR C3 which just about works in 16.5mm scale but is far more realistic in 7mm or EM scale.

 

[Barry37]

That's very observant of you, Graham @Dog Star . It's one of those little cameos that would add life to a layout, isn't it? Also for yours, Barry @Barry37 . There's clearly a sequence of photos to be dug out of here.

And Dave @Yorkshire Dave - whoops! I was so concentrated on Kings Cross for some reason that my fingers got carried away. Anyway, it's always good when the most unexpected and poor photos when considered in the classical meaning of "poor" produce information which a classic view would not. It makes the publishing of such photos all the more worthwhile. It's funny that you mention the building craze for concrete monstrosities in the 1960s. I was talking to Tim Watson at the "Copenhagen Fields at 40" fest about some of Tim Mills' photos around Kings Cross and we discussed the way that most of those 1960s blocks have been raised already and replaced with more modern and architecturally more acceptable (?) construction. However, people of my generation too easily forget that buildings from the 1960s are, of course, already 50 - 60 years old so probably well past their "sell by" date anyway.

Seen several times previously, for example in post #3451 is A2 60523 Sun Castle at Hornsey on 14th June 1958. 60523 was a New England engine from December 1948, then Grantham in December 1958 and New England again in April 1959 before becoming a Doncaster engine in January 1960. It moved to it's final shed like a homing pigeon, New England, in October 1962 and was withdrawn in June 1963. (SLS). It went in to Doncaster Works for cutting up at the end of August. (BR Database).

View attachment 228139

J50 68906 with another unidentified (probably 68920 - see below) behind and a J52 (probably 68824) behind that on shed at Hornsey MPD on 14th June 1958. It was allocated to Hornsey in March 1953 and was withdrawn in May 1959. (SLS). It was scrapped at Doncaster Works (Yeadon) but we have no date.

View attachment 228140

J6 64196 with N2 69521 ahead and an unidentified J50 behind on shed at Hornsey on 14th June 1958. 64196 moved to New England in March 1960 where it was withdrawn in the September. (SLS). It then went to Doncaster Works where it was observed in the scrap yard on 9th October. (RO). It was scrapped later the same month. (BR Database). 69521 had been a Kings Cross engine since at least 1948 and was reallocated to New England in August 1959 where it was withdrawn in June 1961. (BR Database and SLS).It went to Doncaster Works where it was scrapped (RO) although we have no date.

View attachment 228141

J52 68824 on shed Hornsey MPD on 14th June 1958 with the bunker of J50 68920 in front and another unidentified J50 behind. 68824 was a Hornsey engine from October 1953 and moved to Ardsley on loan in April 1959 and was allocated there in May where it was withdrawn a couple of weeks later. (SLS). It was scrapped at Doncaster Works but no date is stated. 68920 was also a Hornsey engine from October 1952 and moved to Kings Cross in July 1961 where it was withdrawn a week later. (RO, SLS and BR Database). It was scrapped at Doncaster Works but there’s no date. (RO).

View attachment 228142

Brian

To the right of 60523 Sun Castle, the last wagon next to the buffer stop, is a former Private Owner open wagon with traces of livery. Could well be a former "DENABY" wagon, from the letters/parts of letters that are visible.

 

[AJC]

To the right of 60523 Sun Castle, the last wagon next to the buffer stop, is a former Private Owner open wagon with traces of livery. Could well be a former "DENABY" wagon, from the letters/parts of letters that are visible.

I think it must be Denaby, the same wagon is there in lots of the shots, so there’s plenty of comparisons.

Adam

 

[Overseer]

To the right of 60523 Sun Castle, the last wagon next to the buffer stop, is a former Private Owner open wagon with traces of livery. Could well be a former "DENABY" wagon, from the letters/parts of letters that are visible.

Definitely Denaby. I thought at first glance it was one of their pre 1923 wagons - #1 (Denaby wagon thread) as it looks taller than the adjacent 16 tonner, but looking at it more makes me think it may just be a 8 plank 1923 RCH wagon. In some of the shots it looks like it has external diagonal straps which would rule out it being one of the pre 1923 wagons.


The Barrow Barnsley wagon is just a standard 1923 RCH 8 plank wagon for height comparison, my Slaters pre painted Denaby kit is still in its box.

 

[oldravendale]

I so agree with you about the relatively rare photographs of the less glamorous locos, Roger @Roger Pound, although in fairness these are just record shots but they'll be valuable from the point of view of the details they show. Fortunately Tim was not averse to using frames on these less spectacular subjects as you've noticed, although he was always after that "master shot" using the big locos. I think he achieved that several times but he was never satisfied with his photos. As far as the J6 is concerned I suspect Arun has given us the answer. As he says I suspect the market would be very small.

Inevitably I'd not noticed the Denaby wagon, Barry @Barry37 . Thanks Adam @AJC for following that up and to @Overseer for confirmation and a model example.

2884 2-8-0 2890 at Old Oak Common on 15th June 1958. This was a Southall engine from October 1955, moved to Banbury in November 1958, Swindon in November 1959 and in to store in April 1963. It then moved to Ebbw Junction, Newport in September the same year, Severn Tunnel Junction in February, Neath in April and back to Ebbw Junction in November, all in 1964. It was withdrawn from Ebbw Junction in May 1965. (SLS). It was scrapped at Bird’s, Risca (WHTS) in August 1965. (BR Database).



Britannia 70031 Byron previously seen in post #2367 here is at Willesden Loco on 15th June 1958. It was allocated to Longsight in January 1953 and didn’t move away until it went to Trafford Park in April 1960. By September the same year it was back at Longsight, then Aston in September 1961, Willesden in May 1963, Crewe North in January, Crewe South in June and Carlisle Upperby, all in 1965 and ended up at Carlisle Kingmoor in December 1966. (SLS). Things then diverge. The SLS advise it was withdrawn from Speke Junction on week ending 11th November 1967 but BR Database and WHTS advise withdrawn from Kingmoor on the same date. It was scrapped at J McWilliams at Shettleston in March 1968. (WHTS).



Seen previously in post #1531 is Crab 2-6-0 42853. Here it’s at Willesden MPD on 15th June 1958. It was a Bescot engine from November 1957, Newton Heath in August and Bescot in October 1958 then Crewe South in May and Nuneaton in September 1959, to Mold Junction at the start of July and finally Birkenhead Mollington Street in December 1961. It was withdrawn from there in mid June 1963 going to Crewe Works for scrapping which had occurred by mid October. (SLS).



Modified Hall 6974 Bryngwyn Hall at Old Oak Common MPD on 15th June 1958. The loco had lived at Old Oak Common since October 1947 and moved to Southall in December 1961, back to Old Oak in December 1963, Oxford in February, Reading in October 1964 and had a second go at Oxford in November where it was withdrawn in June 1965. (SLS). It was scrapped in August 1965 (edited BR Database) at Bird’s, Risca (WHTS).



Brian

 

[Dog Star]

Brian,

Please check dates for the Hall, as written the loco was cut up before withdrawal.

 

[Martin Shaw]

Dog Star posted as I was typing, the loco was wdn 21/5/65, Sold to Birds Risca 24/6/65 and indeed probably cut up in the August of that year.
Martin

 

[Barry37]

I so agree with you about the relatively rare photographs of the less glamorous locos, Roger @Roger Pound, although in fairness these are just record shots but they'll be valuable from the point of view of the details they show. Fortunately Tim was not averse to using frames on these less spectacular subjects as you've noticed, although he was always after that "master shot" using the big locos. I think he achieved that several times but he was never satisfied with his photos. As far as the J6 is concerned I suspect Arun has given us the answer. As he says I suspect the market would be very small.

Inevitably I'd not noticed the Denaby wagon, Barry @Barry37 . Thanks Adam @AJC for following that up and to @Overseer for confirmation and a model example.

2884 2-8-0 2890 at Old Oak Common on 15th June 1958. This was a Southall engine from October 1955, moved to Banbury in November 1958, Swindon in November 1959 and in to store in April 1963. It then moved to Ebbw Junction, Newport in September the same year, Severn Tunnel Junction in February, Neath in April and back to Ebbw Junction in November, all in 1964. It was withdrawn from Ebbw Junction in May 1965. (SLS). It was scrapped at Bird’s, Risca (WHTS) in August 1965. (BR Database).

View attachment 228225

Britannia 70031 Byron previously seen in post #2367 here is at Willesden Loco on 15th June 1958. It was allocated to Longsight in January 1953 and didn’t move away until it went to Trafford Park in April 1960. By September the same year it was back at Longsight, then Aston in September 1961, Willesden in May 1963, Crewe North in January, Crewe South in June and Carlisle Upperby, all in 1965 and ended up at Carlisle Kingmoor in December 1966. (SLS). Things then diverge. The SLS advise it was withdrawn from Speke Junction on week ending 11th November 1967 but BR Database and WHTS advise withdrawn from Kingmoor on the same date. It was scrapped at J McWilliams at Shettleston in March 1968. (WHTS).

View attachment 228226

Seen previously in post #1531 is Crab 2-6-0 42853. Here it’s at Willesden MPD on 15th June 1958. It was a Bescot engine from November 1957, Newton Heath in August and Bescot in October 1958 then Crewe South in May and Nuneaton in September 1959, to Mold Junction at the start of July and finally Birkenhead Mollington Street in December 1961. It was withdrawn from there in mid June 1963 going to Crewe Works for scrapping which had occurred by mid October. (SLS).

View attachment 228227

Modified Hall 6974 Bryngwyn Hall at Old Oak Common MPD on 15th June 1958. The loco had lived at Old Oak Common since October 1947 and moved to Southall in December 1961, back to Old Oak in December 1963, Oxford in February, Reading in October 1964 and had a second go at Oxford in November where it was withdrawn in June 1965. (SLS). It was scrapped in August 1964 (BR Database) at Bird’s, Risca (WHTS).

View attachment 228228

Brian

There's a former PO RCH 1923 coal wagon on the left of 6974 – "P" prefix to number. There was an article in an HMRS journal, probably by David Larkin, about "What happened to the Private owner wagons?", with BR numbers, which might have identified the former owner. Unfortunately, I no longer have the Journal with that in.

 

[Lyndhurstman]

There's a former PO RCH 1923 coal wagon on the left of 6974 – "P" prefix to number. There was an article in an HMRS journal, probably by David Larkin, about "What happened to the Private owner wagons?", with BR numbers, which might have identified the former owner. Unfortunately, I no longer have the Journal with that in.

From other sources on the internet, I think it may be this:

G R Griffin, “What Happened to the Private Owner Wagons?” Journal of The Historical Model Railway Society, Vol 16 No 11, pp 425-428, July 1999.

Cheers

Jan

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you, Hawkeye @Dog Star and Martin @Martin Shaw . I completely missed that but on checking find that the BR Database is probably suffering a date typo so thank you.

Thanks to Barry @Barry37 and Jan @Lyndhurstman for more wagonry information. It's well worth keeping hold of that reference.

15XX 0-6-0PT 1503 last seen entering Paddington in post #2293 is here at Old Oak Common shed on 15th June 1958. It was an Old Oak Common engine from new in 1949 and was withdrawn at the end of November 1963. (SLS). It was scrapped at T W Ward, Briton Ferry, by the end of May 1964. (Rail UK).



2251 Class 0-6-0 2222 at Old Oak Common MPD on 15th June 1958. It was allocated to Old Oak in December 1952 and left for Shrewsbury in May 1960. Despite many visits to Old Oak in the late ‘50s I never saw a GWR 0-6-0 there. After Shrewsbury it went to Croes Newydd in June 1960, Machynlleth in December the same year and Worcester in June 1962 where it was withdrawn in June 1965. (SLS). It was scrapped in August 1965 (BR Database) at Bird’s, Risca. (WHTS).



This Castle is at Old Oak Common on 15th June 1958 where it was seen previously in post #502. It's one of the early Castles and Tim records this as the first Castle to be scrapped. 4091 Dudley Castle was an Old Oak Common engine at the time of this photo and had been since December 1955 (SLS) but had been all over the system since building in 1925. This was pretty typical of the way Old Oak turned its engines out right up to around 1960. This photo is perhaps notable in that it was to be withdrawn less than a year after this photo was taken, on 19th January 1959. (SLS). It was scrapped in March 1959 at Swindon. (BR Database)



47XX 2-8-0 4703 at Old Oak Common Shed on 15th June 1958. Seen previously in post #2530 and #2384 4703 had been at St Philips Marsh since August 1953 until October 1962 when it moved to Southall, thence to Old Oak in November. It was withdrawn in June 1964. (SLS). It was scrapped at A King & Sons, Norwich, by the end of July. (Rail UK).


Brian