Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[Yorkshire Dave]

Yes indeed! I have taken a look at Mike King's “Illustrated History of Southern Coaches” with a view to establishing the identity of the set being hauled by Dover.

According to Mike's text, four sets numbered 264-267 were formed in June 1950, mainly from Bulleid stock that had been nominally intended for use as loose vehicles. They were employed on London-Ramsgate services, remaining in those duties until completion of Stage 1 of Kent Coast Electrification in 1959, which is consistent with the photograph's 1958 date and location. I reached the tentative conclusion that the pictured train may well be one of these.

The most likely candidate, subject to one anomaly, appears to be set 265, for which Mike gives the formation as follows (1958 notation): Semi-BSO 3959 SK 41, CK 5868, CK 5869, CK 5870, (?Diagram 2666 Maunsell RB; number unspecified), SK 42, Semi-BSO 3960. The anomaly lies in the fact that the buffet car (the only dark bodied vehicle) is located between the second and third composites, whereas Mike lists these as being contiguous. In all other respects, however, the listed formation is consistent with that to be seen in the photograph, and also seemed most likely to be Set 265 in view of the vehicle totals in each set: 264 was 7-car whilst 266 and 267 were both 10-car, leaving 265 as the only 8-car set.

Is there an expert in South Eastern Division carriage workings who can comment?

I've been reading David Gould's Oakwood Press book and I think this could be either set 265 or 267 as we cannot see the last vehicle(s) in the train. Both sets were originally formed in the early 1950s and the Maunsell restaurant cars were rebuilt as Buffet cars in 1954.

David gives the original formation of set 265 thus (and as yours from Mike King):

3rd brake 3960 > 3rd 42 > Maunsell Resturant > 1st/3rd 5870 > 1st/3rd 5869 > 1st/3rd 5868 > 3rd 41 > 3rd brake 3959.

In June 1954 the formation changed when the Buffet car was then marshalled between 1st/3rds 5868 and 5869, therefore making the new formation:

3rd brake 3960 > 3rd 42 > 1st/3rd 5870 > 1st/3rd 5869 > Maunsell Buffet > 1st/3rd 5868 > 3rd 41 > 3rd brake 3959. This makes the Buffet car the fifth vehicle in the train as seen in the photo with 3rd brake 3960 behind the loco.


And the original formation of set 267 thus:

3rd brake 3949 > 3rd 45 > Maunsell Resturant > 1st/3rd 5874 > 1st/3rd 5873 > 1st/3rd 5872 > 1st/3rd 5871 > 3rd 44 > 3rd 43 > 3rd brake 3948.

In June 1956 the formation changed when the Buffet car was then marshalled between 1st/3rds 5872 and 5873, therefore making the new formation:

3rd brake 3949 > 3rd 45 > 1st/3rd 5874 > 1st/3rd 5873 > Maunsell Buffet > 1st/3rd 5872 > 1st/3rd 5871 > 3rd 44 > 3rd 43 > 3rd brake 3948. This makes the Buffet car the fifth vehicle in the train as seen in the photo with Third brake 3949 behind the loco.

The sets were disbanded in June 1959 - a year after the photo was taken.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Seen earlier in post #3853 Schools 30911 Dover on an empty stock Kent Coast train at London Bridge on 16th June 1958. It was allocated to Ramsgate from June 1952 and Nine Elms from June 1959 and Brighton from November 1960, Redhill from January 1962, then Brighton again in December the same year where it was withdrawn later the same month. (SLS). The SLS also recorded that it was seen at Eastleigh awaiting Works or scrap in September 1963 and BR Database confirms a scrapping month of September 1963.

This looks like an ECS being hauled into Charing Cross as the driver/fireman is facing towards the rear of the train and there appears to be a tail light over the left buffer (the SR/Southern Region didn't use headlamps during the day). Added to which the front of the loco is slightly blurred as if heading away while the rest of the train remains in focus - commensurate with slowing down.

For the loco to be facing forward on a ECS it would have had to be turned on the turntable at Charing Cross (or on the Cannon Street triangle), carry the correct headcode discs for the New Cross Gate carriage sidings and be on the line on the other side of the platform next to the BR built 4-EPB. Very unlikey to be turned due to the intensity of the suburban services into Charing Cross and Cannon Street (ex-SER) with a few into Blackfriars and Holborn Viaduct although most of latter came via Elephant & Castle (ex-LCDR).

 

[76043]

Nobody has mentioned the position of the photographer in the pic of 4088 on an upstairs downstairs express. Tim was very close to a signal, interesting spot that, wherever it was.
Tony

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Nobody has mentioned the position of the photographer in the pic of 4088 on an upstairs downstairs express. Tim was very close to a signal, interesting spot that, wherever it was.

That'll be from the footbridge off the canal towpath to rail level looking east towards Mitre Bridge - which carries the West London Line.

 

[Martin Shaw]

This looks like an ECS being hauled into Charing Cross as the driver/fireman is facing towards the rear of the train and there appears to be a tail light over the left buffer (the SR/Southern Region didn't use headlamps during the day). Added to which the front of the loco is slightly blurred as if heading away while the rest of the train remains in focus - commensurate with slowing down.

I agree with Dave, the train is running through platform 4 which was an up platform however given that, the destination is more likely Cannon Street allowing for the layout at Borough Market Junc, although It could still have been Charing Cross. It probably came from Bricklayers Arms although Grove Park, Bellingham, Eardley Road sidings are all possible.
Martin

 

[John Palmer]

I've been reading David Gould's Oakwood Press book and I think this could be either set 265 or 267 as we cannot see the last vehicle(s) in the train. Both sets were originally formed in the early 1950s and the Maunsell restaurant cars were rebuilt as Buffet cars in 1954.

David gives the original formation of set 265 thus (and as yours from Mike King):

3rd brake 3960 > 3rd 42 > Maunsell Resturant > 1st/3rd 5870 > 1st/3rd 5869 > 1st/3rd 5868 > 3rd 41 > 3rd brake 3959.

In June 1954 the formation changed when the Buffet car was then marshalled between 1st/3rds 5868 and 5869, therefore making the new formation:

3rd brake 3960 > 3rd 42 > 1st/3rd 5870 > 1st/3rd 5869 > Maunsell Buffet > 1st/3rd 5868 > 3rd 41 > 3rd brake 3959. This makes the Buffet car the fifth vehicle in the train as seen in the photo with 3rd brake 3960 behind the loco.


And the original formation of set 267 thus:

3rd brake 3949 > 3rd 45 > Maunsell Resturant > 1st/3rd 5874 > 1st/3rd 5873 > 1st/3rd 5872 > 1st/3rd 5871 > 3rd 44 > 3rd 43 > 3rd brake 3948.

In June 1956 the formation changed when the Buffet car was then marshalled between 1st/3rds 5872 and 5873, therefore making the new formation:

3rd brake 3949 > 3rd 45 > 1st/3rd 5874 > 1st/3rd 5873 > Maunsell Buffet > 1st/3rd 5872 > 1st/3rd 5871 > 3rd 44 > 3rd 43 > 3rd brake 3948. This makes the Buffet car the fifth vehicle in the train as seen in the photo with Third brake 3949 behind the loco.

The sets were disbanded in June 1959 - a year after the photo was taken.

Excellent additional information on the identity of this Bulleid set! I should have thought of cross-referencing David Gould's information with Mike King's. That clears up my perceived anomaly in Set 265's formation, but I think you're right to raise Set 267 to the status of equal contender. It would help to identify whether the seventh vehicle to be seen in the photograph is a composite or full second, but try as I may to enhance the image I just cannot make out its window arrangement.

I was also intrigued by the suggestion that this is an ECS working with the 'Schools' at the rear, so took a look at C.J. Gammell's “Southern Region Engine Workings”, which includes South Eastern Division diagrams for Winter 1957, so not far adrift in timeframe. Ramsgate Duties 477, 478, 481, 485 and 486 are all expressed to be covered by 5P V Class locomotives (i.e. 'Schools') and involve workings having both Charing Cross and Cannon Street destinations.. The really interesting one is Duty 477 which includes a 'pull out' from Rotherhithe Road Carriage Sidings, departing thence at 3/10 as ECS to Cannon Street via Surrey Canal Junction 'on rear', arriving Cannon Street at 3/34 for a 4/44 departure to Ramsgate. Given the position of the shadows, is this a good 'fit' for the pictured train? It seems to be the only Ramsgate 'Schools' duty involving attachment to the rear of a train.

 

[Barry37]

The ex-SNCF types didn't get that branding immediately (I forget exactly when it came in - the ex-SR 8 planks got something similar - perhaps @Barry37 can remember?), but I think it was about 1960. Photographic evidence suggests that application of the prohibition on the wagons ways relatively quick, but far from instant. That particular wagon also has spoked wheels, which is fairly unusual for the type.

Adam

The SR opens did indeed get the "Not to be used for / PW Ballast / or other / Engineers Materials" ( / = new line), on the 5th & 6th planks to the left of the doors – position may have varied.
There's a photo (dated 1968) in David Larkin's Bradford Barton book "Pre-Nationalisation Freight Wagons of BR", though he doesn't comment on it in the caption.

 

[Barry37]

Thank you for further education regarding wagons, John @John Palmer , Dave @Yorkshire Dave , Barry @Barry37 and Nigel @46240 .Those are all useful additions to the information bank.

Thanks too, Martin @Martin Shaw for yours, and in connection with the Castle to Larry as well for raising the A1 at Lloyds issue. Duly recorded for the sake of semantics if nothing else! As for the splitting of hairs... (and that includes you, Simon).

Seen earlier in post #3853 Schools 30911 Dover on an empty stock Kent Coast train at London Bridge on 16th June 1958. It was allocated to Ramsgate from June 1952 and Nine Elms from June 1959 and Brighton from November 1960, Redhill from January 1962, then Brighton again in December the same year where it was withdrawn later the same month. (SLS). The SLS also recorded that it was seen at Eastleigh awaiting Works or scrap in September 1963 and BR Database confirms a scrapping month of September 1963.

View attachment 228510

Castle Class 4089 Donnington Castle which was in post #3865 on a down express on the GWR main line at Old Oak Common on 19th June 1958. It had been allocated to Old Oak Common in June 1954, moving to Worcester in January 1959, back to Old Oak in August 1960 and Reading in December 1963 and Southall in June 1964 before withdrawal in September the same year. (SLS). It was scrapped at Hayes, Bridgend, in January 1965. (BR Database).

View attachment 228511

Castle 4088 Dartmouth Castle on a down express on the GWR main line at Old Oak on 19th June 1958. It was at Worcester in April 1958, Swindon in February 1961 and St Philips Marsh in November 1963 where it was withdrawn in May 1964. (SLS). It was scrapped in September 1964 at Cohen’s, Morriston. (BR Database).

View attachment 228512

Ivatt 2-6-2T 41299 probably acting as station pilot at London Bridge on 16th June 1958 although it carries a duty number on the disc. This was one of the locos never to reach its ancestral home on the LMR, serving the SR for its entire life. It was allocated to Bricklayers Arms in December 1951, then Exmouth Junction in February 1961, Brighton in April 1963, Guildford in June 1964 and Eastleigh in June 1965 where it was withdrawn in October 1966. (SLS). It was scrapped in March 1967 at Cashmore’s, Newport. (BR Database).

View attachment 228513

Brian

In the photo of 4089, there are wagons in sidings on the right. Unfortunately, they're a bit indistinct, so the only identifiable one (to left of telegraph pole) is an ex-LMS brake van to D1657, built 1927 - 31. It has the extra diagonal strapping either side of the ducket, fitted around the time of nationalisation to many of these vans.

 

[Martin Shaw]

I'm grateful to John for confirming my surmise that the train originated at Bricklayers Arms and specifically Rotherhithe Road Carriage Sidings. What's the likelihood that the ECS is being pulled by one of that sheds H class, quite high I would suggest in 1958. The eastern section of London Bridge lies more or less NW/SE so the shadows point to an afternoon picture and I think his suggestion is most likely.

Martin

 

[oldravendale]

Some smashing sleuthing going on here and thanks for the correction to the photo of 4088 Dan @Dan Randall . Once again I'm caught out by publishing direct from Tim's notes without reference to the picture. Now corrected by way of an edit.

You started some interesting stuff, Heather regarding that Schools photo so many thanks. That starting info has encouraged some really good stuff about the coaching set for which I thank Dave @Yorkshire Dave , Martin @Martin Shaw and John @John Palmer. That developed in to the discussion about the direction of the train itself and although recorded as empty stock there was nothing to identify the direction of travel. Thanks for sorting that out so convincingly.

I think I'll leave your comment, Roger @Roger Pound , to moulder in the long grass for now.

Then Tony @76043 thanks for your question about Tim's position when taking the photos of trains passing at Old Oak. Dave @Yorkshire Dave has answered the question more eloquently than I could have done, complete with maps. I know from first hand experience that the footbridge was a great place to watch the passing rail traffic and it could be used to gain access to the shed but one was then exposed to the gaze of the loco crews and more worryingly, the management! Far better to walk a bit further along the canal and find a break in the fencing...

Thank you for further wagon information Adam @AJC , Barry @Barry37 and John @John Palmer.

All this extra data adds so much to these pictures and I remain in your debt. This series of older pictures have been really successful in pulling out more information than I could ever have imagined.

Rebuilt West Country 34017 Ilfracombe described as on the up Man of Kent at London Bridge on 16th June 1958. However, the loco is lacking its train and I'm wondering whether it's more likely that the loco is backing out of (possibly) Charing Cross to be serviced. At the time it was a Ramsgate engine and had been since February. It was actually rebuilt in October 1957. In June 1959 it was reallocated to Bricklayers Arms, then Nine Elms in January 1961, Eastleigh in December 1963 and back to Nine Elms in June 1966 where it was withdrawn in October 1966. It went to Buttigeigs, Newport (RO) where it was seen many times between June 1967 and November 1968, reported by WHTS and RO and it was eventually scrapped in mid December 1968. (WHTS).



L1 4-4-0 31757 on a down Kent Coast express at New Cross on 16th June 1958. It was reinstated from store at Ashford in June 1956 and went to Nine Elms in June 1959 where it was withdrawn in December 1961. It then went to Eastleigh Works (RO) where it was observed on 9th March 1963 (LCGB) and was cut up in week ending 23rd March 1963. (RO).



Seen earlier in post #3853 here's a rather blurred Schools 30911 Dover on a down Kent Coast express at New Cross on 16th June 1958. It was allocated to Ramsgate from June 1952 and Nine Elms from June 1959 and Brighton from November 1960, Redhill from January 1962, then Brighton again in December the same year where it was withdrawn later the same month. (SLS). The SLS also recorded that it was seen at Eastleigh awaiting Works or scrap in September 1963 and BR Database confirms a scrapping month of September 1963.



West Country 34001 Exeter previously in post #350 on a down Kent Coast express at New Cross on 16th June 1958. 34001 was rebuilt in November 1957. It was a Bricklayers Arms engine, allocated there from October 1957 so probably a book transfer before the rebuild was complete. It then moved around a bit going to Stewarts Lane in February 1961, Nine Elms in May the same year, then Eastleigh in September 1964 and finally Nine Elms again in January 1965. It was one of the last to be withdrawn, on 6th July 1967 (SLS) and then went to Cashmore's, Newport where it was scrapped in the October. (BR Database).



Brian

 

[Martin Shaw]

34017 is obviously not working the Man of Kent however I think it's on its way to work the down service which departed Charing Cross at 4.10pm. We've established that Tim was at London Bridge mid afternoon so the timings fit. The loco is facing the up direction and entering up platform 7. I would suggest it going forwards as the fireman is looking forward and you can just see his cap badge. Logically platform 7 suggests the CX direction so it might be going to Ewer Street for turning however there was only a 55' turntable there so it might well be going round the triangle via Cannon Street. Can you get a light pacific on a 55' turntable? An obvious question is why B Arms sent it out backwards, reversing at North Kent Junction rather than the opposite way around avoiding turning it, personal choice perhaps as I've seen both.

Nice to see a pic of an L1, at that stage 30 years old holding its own on express traffic. On does wonder why given the plethora of modern big engines available to the SR in the 50s. The connection deviating to the left in both this and the pic of 34001 is the Up East London which by then was virtually unused apart from the odd goods working or railtours, there is a photo of Met No 1 at New Cross around this time. The LTE trains (F stock?) shuttled back and forth to Shoreditch on the down East London next to the white railing posts in the background.

The Schools is on the down local as its headcode is via Chatham and it will turn left at Chislehurst Junction. Both the L1 and the WC are both on the down through with a headcode Folkestone or Dover via Chiselhurst, Tonbridge and Ashford. The local and through lines in both directions were renamed slow and fast at the resignalling.

It is slightly alarming to realise this was sometime ago.

Martin

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks for yours, Martin @Martin Shaw . My reasoning for thinking that 34017 was backing out of Charing Cross was my assumption that Bricklayers Arms would have turned the engine if sending it back up to Charing Cross. I guess it's always possible that the turntable was out of commission.

Useful stuff about the L1/34001 pictures. The info about the East London Line and the relationship to BR in the area is new to me and will be added to the information store.

Thanks for the headcode info too.

And please desist from reminding me about the age of these pictures....

Standard Cass 4 2-6-4T 80151 on a Tunbridge Wells train at London Bridge on 16th June 1958. It had been allocated to Brighton since January 1957, moved to Redhill in December 1963, Salisbury in June 1965 and Eastleigh in October 1966 where it was withdrawn in May 1967. (SLS). It was an escapee from the cutters’ torch as it went to Barry where I photographed it on 18th November 1967. It was also recorded there by the SLS on 7th July 1968. For more details of the loco after Barry see 80151 To my unpracticed eye it looks as though that's a Fairburn 2-6-4T to the right.



This is 70004, William Shakespeare which we’ve seen in post #887 and which was supplied new as a BR (GE) loco but transferred immediately to Stewarts Lane - published photos show it on the Golden Arrow along with Iron Duke. It moved away to the LMR in July 1958 to Kentish Town where Tim photographed it on 16th June 1958, so it was a new arrival at the time. He notes it as being too long for the turntable and it looks as though there is an effort being made to turn it in this photo. I'd have expected someone to check whether this was a practical addition to the Kentish Town fleet before sending it there. The loco is not carrying a shed plate in the photo so is clearly a fresh addition or, having recognised that it was too big and would have to go away so effort was made to claim ownership. From Kentish Town it almost immediately went on loan to Trafford Park where it was officially allocated in August then Willesden on loan from the end of December 1960 where it became part of the official allocation in the following February. It then went to Aston in March, back to Willesden in May, both 1962. Carlisle Canal in June, Kingmoor in July and back to Willesden in August, all 1963. The next allocation was Crewe North in January 1965 and Stockport Edgeley the following June. It ended up at Carlisle Kingmoor in June 1967 and was withdrawn at the end of the year. (SLS). It was scrapped in March 1968 at T W Ward, Inverkeithing. (BR Database). This loco carries the standard smoke deflectors as provided when they were introduced.





We saw this loco recently in post #4252. It’s Liverpool Street J69 pilot 68619 in sparkling condition in June or July 1958 and taken from the ramp where most of the locospotters congregated. It was allocated to Stratford from at least 1948 where it was withdrawn in October 1961. (SLS and BR Database). Yeadons advise it was scrapped at Stratford and BR Database that this was immediately after withdrawal.



Brian

 

[John Palmer]

Thought a bit more detective work on ECS workings via London Bridge might be appropriate. The 3/10 Rotherhithe Road-Cannon Street was by no means the only ECS working having a locomotive attached 'on rear', but it formed part of the only 1957 diagram having a Ramsgate-shedded 'Schools' so attached. Since 30911 Dover was at the time a Ramsgate locomotive it seems reasonable to infer that the 3/10 ex Rotherhithe Road was the working captured by Tim at London Bridge. I suggest that his second capture of Dover that day at New Cross in img3496 is the same stock as pictured earlier (profile of the 5th carriage is dissimilar to that of the Bulleid vehicles), in which case this is likely to be the next part of Duty No. 477: the 4/44 to Ramsgate.

“Southern Region Engine Workings” also reveals that the invisible locomotive at the head of what I have presumed to be the 3/10 ex Rotherhithe Road ECS in img3490 should have been a light Pacific engaged on Ramsgate Duty 467. Presumably this locomotive remained sandwiched between the pictured carriages and the stop blocks at Cannon Street until departure of the 4/44 behind Dover. Thus released, it would thereafter follow to Ramsgate with the 5/14 passenger prior to disposal at Ramsgate shed.

What I find interesting about the shot of the L1 in img3495 is that the number '437' on the upper headcode disc corresponds with Dover Duty No. 437, which was the 'Night Ferry' Assisting Engine duty: a regular L1 turn paired with the 'Merchant Navy' assigned to Dover Duty No. 430 for haulage of this heavy train. Correct class for the assisting locomotive, but how does an Ashford rather than a Dover engine come to be carrying it? Clearly, the train in img3495 should not be taken to be the 'Night Ferry'!

 

[Martin Shaw]

Sorry Brian, I do appreciate none of us need reminding of anno domini but the pictures of London Bridge remind me of going to school there and despite however much spin I may place on that, it doesn't disguise the fact that it wasn't last week.

John
Interesting stuff about loco workings, I have found two other pictures of the up Night Ferry. On the 4th June 1959 it was hauled by D1 31545 and unrebuilt BoB 34073 249 Squadron. The D1 came from Nine Elms and the BoB from Ramsgate and the D1 has the headcode disc 434.
On another day In June 1959 it was hauled by L1 31789 and unrebuilt WC 34093 Saunton. In theory the L1 was a Nine Elms engine however it was transferred from Dover in May 59, the WC was definitely a Nine Elms engine. The headcode disc has duty 437. Some variations with no Merchant Navies and a D1. I don't think you can necessarily derive too much from the engines working the Night Ferry as it's timing could vary so much due to SNCF and the English Channel, however I think in the case of #3495 the L1 was the assisting engine on the up Night Ferry and its returning home.

Brian
Re#3498a the Std 4 has arrived in platform 9 either on the rear of ECS or as a light engine as it has a tail lamp on the bufferbeam middle as Yorkshire Dave noted upthread about another pic at LB. Of note is the Mk1 BSO at the head of the train. This is a seven compt long underframe version of which the SR had only 10 so perhaps fortuitous to capture it. The second vehicle is also a Mk1 but the third looks as though it might be one of the supremely uncomfortable
ex SECR ten compartment 100 seaters, I pity anyone going to South Bermondsey in that let alone Tunbridge Wells West.
The 4 platforms 8-11 called I think Central Low Level were not much used for passenger traffic, Oxted lines and odd peak hours to Caterham/Tattenham Corner. Apart from that parcels seemed the order of the day here.

The Fairburn tank in platform 8 could be anyone of 30 odd still on the Southern at the time but most likely from B Arms/T Wells West/3 Bridges sheds which gives us 16 to choose from. They all went to their spiritual home in December 59 and a similar number of Std 4s came south, no doubt to the relief of both the Southern and the LM.
Martin

 

[Roger Pound]

I found the further information on the history of 70004 'William Shakespeare interesting. I have a happy memory of being one of no doubt thousands who clambered up the steps and gazed at the footplate and fittings when this loco was one display at the Festival of Britain. I was one of a school party who had travelled from Leicester down the GC to Marylebone. A memorable day - A3 haulage on the GC, 'cabbing' a brand new loco at the exhibition and a bit of train spotting on the Southern Line which ran adjacent to the Festival site.

A bit more rabbiting for the long grass, Brian.

Roger

 

[oldravendale]

Great stuff about the ECS and L1 working, John @John Palmer . Thanks for yours as well, Martin @Martin Shaw . And you are, regrettably, so right about anno domini! And Roger @Roger Pound . The reminiscences you provide give a very human insight in to the railways of the time and, as I've said previously, are well worth preserving.

This is something of a rarity in view of the location which was not often photographed, and certainly not with steam present. Fairburn 2-6-4T 42684 on arrival at Fenchurch Street with a train from Shoeburyness in June or July 1958. The loco was allocated to Shoeburyness from December 1956 and withdrawn in June 1962. (SLS). It was observed at Doncaster on 22nd July 1962 (RO) where WHTS report it as cut up the same month, although BR Database propose a scrapping date of 8th September 1962.



B1 61119 awaiting departure at Liverpool Street in June or July 1958 and photographed from the ramp which split the station in two. The loco was allocated to Stratford when new in January 1947. It went to Parkeston Quay in June 1959, back to Stratford in July and finally March in October 1962 where it was withdrawn in November 1963. (SLS). It was scrapped at Doncaster Works in January 1964. (BR Database).



A2/3 60520 Owen Tudor leaving Kings Cross in July 1958. This has been seen in previous postings many times including #2953. It had been allocated to Grantham in October 1957, New England in July 1959. Doncaster in January 1960 and back to New England where it was withdrawn in June 1963. (SLS). It was scrapped at Doncaster Works which it entered at the end of August 1963. (BR Database).



Two photos here featuring B1 61247 Lord Burghley. The first also has B2 61615 Culford Hall backing in to Kings Cross in July 1958. The B1 then left on a Cambridge Train. 61247 was based at Doncaster from new in October 1947 and moved only once, to Colwick, in July 1960 where it was withdrawn in June 1962. (SLS). It ended up at Doncaster Works where it was scrapped in June 1962. (BR Database). The B2 belonged to Cambridge from November 1956 and was withdrawn from there in February 1959. It was seen intact at Stratford Works on 11th February 1959 (RO) and was scrapped later the same month. (BR Database)





Brian

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Rebuilt West Country 34017 Ilfracombe described as on the up Man of Kent at London Bridge on 16th June 1958. However, the loco is lacking its train and I'm wondering whether it's more likely that the loco is backing out of (possibly) Charing Cross to be serviced. At the time it was a Ramsgate engine and had been since February. It was actually rebuilt in October 1957. In June 1959 it was reallocated to Bricklayers Arms, then Nine Elms in January 1961, Eastleigh in December 1963 and back to Nine Elms in June 1966 where it was withdrawn in October 1966. It went to Buttigeigs, Newport (RO) where it was seen many times between June 1967 and November 1968, reported by WHTS and RO and it was eventually scrapped in mid December 1968. (WHTS).

Also note the train on the left - a BR built 2-EPB coupled to a BR(S) built Bulleid 4-EPB, and the difference between the Bulleid and BR gutter heights. Probably a ten car train (heading towards Dartford?) as BR(S) electric suburban services tended to be formed of either four, eight or ten cars.

It will not be a SR built 4-SUB as they were incompatible with the EPB units and as we've seen in earlier posts in this thread, 4-SUBs appear to be concentrated on the Waterloo suburban services.

 

[djparkins]

Great stuff about the ECS and L1 working, John @John Palmer . Thanks for yours as well, Martin @Martin Shaw . And you are, regrettably, so right about anno domini! And Roger @Roger Pound . The reminiscences you provide give a very human insight in to the railways of the time and, as I've said previously, are well worth preserving.

This is something of a rarity in view of the location which was not often photographed, and certainly not with steam present. Fairburn 2-6-4T 42684 on arrival at Fenchurch Street with a train from Shoeburyness in June or July 1958. The loco was allocated to Shoeburyness from December 1956 and withdrawn in June 1962. (SLS). It was observed at Doncaster on 22nd July 1962 (RO) where WHTS report it as cut up the same month, although BR Database propose a scrapping date of 8th September 1962.

View attachment 228653

B1 61119 awaiting departure at Liverpool Street in June or July 1958 and photographed from the ramp which split the station in two. The loco was allocated to Stratford when new in January 1947. It went to Parkeston Quay in June 1959, back to Stratford in July and finally March in October 1962 where it was withdrawn in November 1963. (SLS). It was scrapped at Doncaster Works in January 1964. (BR Database).

View attachment 228654

A2/3 60520 Owen Tudor leaving Kings Cross in July 1958. This has been seen in previous postings many times including #2953. It had been allocated to Grantham in October 1957, New England in July 1959. Doncaster in January 1960 and back to New England where it was withdrawn in June 1963. (SLS). It was scrapped at Doncaster Works which it entered at the end of August 1963. (BR Database).

View attachment 228655

Two photos here featuring B1 61247 Lord Burghley. The first also has B2 61615 Culford Hall backing in to Kings Cross in July 1958. The B1 then left on a Cambridge Train. 61247 was based at Doncaster from new in October 1947 and moved only once, to Colwick, in July 1960 where it was withdrawn in June 1962. (SLS). It ended up at Doncaster Works where it was scrapped in June 1962. (BR Database). The B2 belonged to Cambridge from November 1956 and was withdrawn from there in February 1959. It was seen intact at Stratford Works on 11th February 1959 (RO) and was scrapped later the same month. (BR Database)

View attachment 228657

View attachment 228658

Brian

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

What I find interesting about the shot of the L1 in img3495 is that the number '437' on the upper headcode disc corresponds with Dover Duty No. 437, which was the 'Night Ferry' Assisting Engine duty: a regular L1 turn paired with the 'Merchant Navy' assigned to Dover Duty No. 430 for haulage of this heavy train. Correct class for the assisting locomotive, but how does an Ashford rather than a Dover engine come to be carrying it? Clearly, the train in img3495 should not be taken to be the 'Night Ferry'!

Probably the first headcode disc they laid their hands on or it was left with the loco.

don't think you can necessarily derive too much from the engines working the Night Ferry as it's timing could vary so much due to SNCF and the English Channel, however I think in the case of #3495 the L1 was the assisting engine on the up Night Ferry and its returning home.

For that to occur wouldn't the L1 have had to work its way from Stewarts Lane to Bricklayers Arms via the South London line - which would appear to be an unnecessary light engine movement. I would suspect it would have worked a Victoria - Ashford - Kent Coast train to return to its home shed then a Kent Coast - Ashford - Charing Cross or Cannon Street train for it to appear at New Cross on a return journey.

 

[Genghis]

This thread continues to inform and entertain! It's not just the photos, it's the breadth of knowledge in the comments. I hope the supply is nowhere near completion.
Dave