Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[Yorkshire Dave]

Yes indeed! I have taken a look at Mike King's “Illustrated History of Southern Coaches” with a view to establishing the identity of the set being hauled by Dover.

According to Mike's text, four sets numbered 264-267 were formed in June 1950, mainly from Bulleid stock that had been nominally intended for use as loose vehicles. They were employed on London-Ramsgate services, remaining in those duties until completion of Stage 1 of Kent Coast Electrification in 1959, which is consistent with the photograph's 1958 date and location. I reached the tentative conclusion that the pictured train may well be one of these.

The most likely candidate, subject to one anomaly, appears to be set 265, for which Mike gives the formation as follows (1958 notation): Semi-BSO 3959 SK 41, CK 5868, CK 5869, CK 5870, (?Diagram 2666 Maunsell RB; number unspecified), SK 42, Semi-BSO 3960. The anomaly lies in the fact that the buffet car (the only dark bodied vehicle) is located between the second and third composites, whereas Mike lists these as being contiguous. In all other respects, however, the listed formation is consistent with that to be seen in the photograph, and also seemed most likely to be Set 265 in view of the vehicle totals in each set: 264 was 7-car whilst 266 and 267 were both 10-car, leaving 265 as the only 8-car set.

Is there an expert in South Eastern Division carriage workings who can comment?

I've been reading David Gould's Oakwood Press book and I think this could be either set 265 or 267 as we cannot see the last vehicle(s) in the train. Both sets were originally formed in the early 1950s and the Maunsell restaurant cars were rebuilt as Buffet cars in 1954.

David gives the original formation of set 265 thus (and as yours from Mike King):

3rd brake 3960 > 3rd 42 > Maunsell Resturant > 1st/3rd 5870 > 1st/3rd 5869 > 1st/3rd 5868 > 3rd 41 > 3rd brake 3959.

In June 1954 the formation changed when the Buffet car was then marshalled between 1st/3rds 5868 and 5869, therefore making the new formation:

3rd brake 3960 > 3rd 42 > 1st/3rd 5870 > 1st/3rd 5869 > Maunsell Buffet > 1st/3rd 5868 > 3rd 41 > 3rd brake 3959. This makes the Buffet car the fifth vehicle in the train as seen in the photo with 3rd brake 3960 behind the loco.


And the original formation of set 267 thus:

3rd brake 3949 > 3rd 45 > Maunsell Resturant > 1st/3rd 5874 > 1st/3rd 5873 > 1st/3rd 5872 > 1st/3rd 5871 > 3rd 44 > 3rd 43 > 3rd brake 3948.

In June 1956 the formation changed when the Buffet car was then marshalled between 1st/3rds 5872 and 5873, therefore making the new formation:

3rd brake 3949 > 3rd 45 > 1st/3rd 5874 > 1st/3rd 5873 > Maunsell Buffet > 1st/3rd 5872 > 1st/3rd 5871 > 3rd 44 > 3rd 43 > 3rd brake 3948. This makes the Buffet car the fifth vehicle in the train as seen in the photo with Third brake 3949 behind the loco.

The sets were disbanded in June 1959 - a year after the photo was taken.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Seen earlier in post #3853 Schools 30911 Dover on an empty stock Kent Coast train at London Bridge on 16th June 1958. It was allocated to Ramsgate from June 1952 and Nine Elms from June 1959 and Brighton from November 1960, Redhill from January 1962, then Brighton again in December the same year where it was withdrawn later the same month. (SLS). The SLS also recorded that it was seen at Eastleigh awaiting Works or scrap in September 1963 and BR Database confirms a scrapping month of September 1963.

This looks like an ECS being hauled into Charing Cross as the driver/fireman is facing towards the rear of the train and there appears to be a tail light over the left buffer (the SR/Southern Region didn't use headlamps during the day). Added to which the front of the loco is slightly blurred as if heading away while the rest of the train remains in focus - commensurate with slowing down.

For the loco to be facing forward on a ECS it would have had to be turned on the turntable at Charing Cross (or on the Cannon Street triangle), carry the correct headcode discs for the New Cross Gate carriage sidings and be on the line on the other side of the platform next to the BR built 4-EPB. Very unlikey to be turned due to the intensity of the suburban services into Charing Cross and Cannon Street (ex-SER) with a few into Blackfriars and Holborn Viaduct although most of latter came via Elephant & Castle (ex-LCDR).

 

[76043]

Nobody has mentioned the position of the photographer in the pic of 4088 on an upstairs downstairs express. Tim was very close to a signal, interesting spot that, wherever it was.
Tony

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Nobody has mentioned the position of the photographer in the pic of 4088 on an upstairs downstairs express. Tim was very close to a signal, interesting spot that, wherever it was.

That'll be from the footbridge off the canal towpath to rail level looking east towards Mitre Bridge - which carries the West London Line.

 

[Martin Shaw]

This looks like an ECS being hauled into Charing Cross as the driver/fireman is facing towards the rear of the train and there appears to be a tail light over the left buffer (the SR/Southern Region didn't use headlamps during the day). Added to which the front of the loco is slightly blurred as if heading away while the rest of the train remains in focus - commensurate with slowing down.

I agree with Dave, the train is running through platform 4 which was an up platform however given that, the destination is more likely Cannon Street allowing for the layout at Borough Market Junc, although It could still have been Charing Cross. It probably came from Bricklayers Arms although Grove Park, Bellingham, Eardley Road sidings are all possible.
Martin

 

[John Palmer]

I've been reading David Gould's Oakwood Press book and I think this could be either set 265 or 267 as we cannot see the last vehicle(s) in the train. Both sets were originally formed in the early 1950s and the Maunsell restaurant cars were rebuilt as Buffet cars in 1954.

David gives the original formation of set 265 thus (and as yours from Mike King):

3rd brake 3960 > 3rd 42 > Maunsell Resturant > 1st/3rd 5870 > 1st/3rd 5869 > 1st/3rd 5868 > 3rd 41 > 3rd brake 3959.

In June 1954 the formation changed when the Buffet car was then marshalled between 1st/3rds 5868 and 5869, therefore making the new formation:

3rd brake 3960 > 3rd 42 > 1st/3rd 5870 > 1st/3rd 5869 > Maunsell Buffet > 1st/3rd 5868 > 3rd 41 > 3rd brake 3959. This makes the Buffet car the fifth vehicle in the train as seen in the photo with 3rd brake 3960 behind the loco.


And the original formation of set 267 thus:

3rd brake 3949 > 3rd 45 > Maunsell Resturant > 1st/3rd 5874 > 1st/3rd 5873 > 1st/3rd 5872 > 1st/3rd 5871 > 3rd 44 > 3rd 43 > 3rd brake 3948.

In June 1956 the formation changed when the Buffet car was then marshalled between 1st/3rds 5872 and 5873, therefore making the new formation:

3rd brake 3949 > 3rd 45 > 1st/3rd 5874 > 1st/3rd 5873 > Maunsell Buffet > 1st/3rd 5872 > 1st/3rd 5871 > 3rd 44 > 3rd 43 > 3rd brake 3948. This makes the Buffet car the fifth vehicle in the train as seen in the photo with Third brake 3949 behind the loco.

The sets were disbanded in June 1959 - a year after the photo was taken.

Excellent additional information on the identity of this Bulleid set! I should have thought of cross-referencing David Gould's information with Mike King's. That clears up my perceived anomaly in Set 265's formation, but I think you're right to raise Set 267 to the status of equal contender. It would help to identify whether the seventh vehicle to be seen in the photograph is a composite or full second, but try as I may to enhance the image I just cannot make out its window arrangement.

I was also intrigued by the suggestion that this is an ECS working with the 'Schools' at the rear, so took a look at C.J. Gammell's “Southern Region Engine Workings”, which includes South Eastern Division diagrams for Winter 1957, so not far adrift in timeframe. Ramsgate Duties 477, 478, 481, 485 and 486 are all expressed to be covered by 5P V Class locomotives (i.e. 'Schools') and involve workings having both Charing Cross and Cannon Street destinations.. The really interesting one is Duty 477 which includes a 'pull out' from Rotherhithe Road Carriage Sidings, departing thence at 3/10 as ECS to Cannon Street via Surrey Canal Junction 'on rear', arriving Cannon Street at 3/34 for a 4/44 departure to Ramsgate. Given the position of the shadows, is this a good 'fit' for the pictured train? It seems to be the only Ramsgate 'Schools' duty involving attachment to the rear of a train.

 

[Barry37]

The ex-SNCF types didn't get that branding immediately (I forget exactly when it came in - the ex-SR 8 planks got something similar - perhaps @Barry37 can remember?), but I think it was about 1960. Photographic evidence suggests that application of the prohibition on the wagons ways relatively quick, but far from instant. That particular wagon also has spoked wheels, which is fairly unusual for the type.

Adam

The SR opens did indeed get the "Not to be used for / PW Ballast / or other / Engineers Materials" ( / = new line), on the 5th & 6th planks to the left of the doors – position may have varied.
There's a photo (dated 1968) in David Larkin's Bradford Barton book "Pre-Nationalisation Freight Wagons of BR", though he doesn't comment on it in the caption.

 

[Barry37]

Thank you for further education regarding wagons, John @John Palmer , Dave @Yorkshire Dave , Barry @Barry37 and Nigel @46240 .Those are all useful additions to the information bank.

Thanks too, Martin @Martin Shaw for yours, and in connection with the Castle to Larry as well for raising the A1 at Lloyds issue. Duly recorded for the sake of semantics if nothing else! As for the splitting of hairs... (and that includes you, Simon).

Seen earlier in post #3853 Schools 30911 Dover on an empty stock Kent Coast train at London Bridge on 16th June 1958. It was allocated to Ramsgate from June 1952 and Nine Elms from June 1959 and Brighton from November 1960, Redhill from January 1962, then Brighton again in December the same year where it was withdrawn later the same month. (SLS). The SLS also recorded that it was seen at Eastleigh awaiting Works or scrap in September 1963 and BR Database confirms a scrapping month of September 1963.

View attachment 228510

Castle Class 4089 Donnington Castle which was in post #3865 on a down express on the GWR main line at Old Oak Common on 19th June 1958. It had been allocated to Old Oak Common in June 1954, moving to Worcester in January 1959, back to Old Oak in August 1960 and Reading in December 1963 and Southall in June 1964 before withdrawal in September the same year. (SLS). It was scrapped at Hayes, Bridgend, in January 1965. (BR Database).

View attachment 228511

Castle 4088 Dartmouth Castle on a down express on the GWR main line at Old Oak on 19th June 1958. It was at Worcester in April 1958, Swindon in February 1961 and St Philips Marsh in November 1963 where it was withdrawn in May 1964. (SLS). It was scrapped in September 1964 at Cohen’s, Morriston. (BR Database).

View attachment 228512

Ivatt 2-6-2T 41299 probably acting as station pilot at London Bridge on 16th June 1958 although it carries a duty number on the disc. This was one of the locos never to reach its ancestral home on the LMR, serving the SR for its entire life. It was allocated to Bricklayers Arms in December 1951, then Exmouth Junction in February 1961, Brighton in April 1963, Guildford in June 1964 and Eastleigh in June 1965 where it was withdrawn in October 1966. (SLS). It was scrapped in March 1967 at Cashmore’s, Newport. (BR Database).

View attachment 228513

Brian

In the photo of 4089, there are wagons in sidings on the right. Unfortunately, they're a bit indistinct, so the only identifiable one (to left of telegraph pole) is an ex-LMS brake van to D1657, built 1927 - 31. It has the extra diagonal strapping either side of the ducket, fitted around the time of nationalisation to many of these vans.

 

[Martin Shaw]

I'm grateful to John for confirming my surmise that the train originated at Bricklayers Arms and specifically Rotherhithe Road Carriage Sidings. What's the likelihood that the ECS is being pulled by one of that sheds H class, quite high I would suggest in 1958. The eastern section of London Bridge lies more or less NW/SE so the shadows point to an afternoon picture and I think his suggestion is most likely.

Martin

 

[oldravendale]

Some smashing sleuthing going on here and thanks for the correction to the photo of 4088 Dan @Dan Randall . Once again I'm caught out by publishing direct from Tim's notes without reference to the picture. Now corrected by way of an edit.

You started some interesting stuff, Heather regarding that Schools photo so many thanks. That starting info has encouraged some really good stuff about the coaching set for which I thank Dave @Yorkshire Dave , Martin @Martin Shaw and John @John Palmer. That developed in to the discussion about the direction of the train itself and although recorded as empty stock there was nothing to identify the direction of travel. Thanks for sorting that out so convincingly.

I think I'll leave your comment, Roger @Roger Pound , to moulder in the long grass for now.

Then Tony @76043 thanks for your question about Tim's position when taking the photos of trains passing at Old Oak. Dave @Yorkshire Dave has answered the question more eloquently than I could have done, complete with maps. I know from first hand experience that the footbridge was a great place to watch the passing rail traffic and it could be used to gain access to the shed but one was then exposed to the gaze of the loco crews and more worryingly, the management! Far better to walk a bit further along the canal and find a break in the fencing...

Thank you for further wagon information Adam @AJC , Barry @Barry37 and John @John Palmer.

All this extra data adds so much to these pictures and I remain in your debt. This series of older pictures have been really successful in pulling out more information than I could ever have imagined.

Rebuilt West Country 34017 Ilfracombe described as on the up Man of Kent at London Bridge on 16th June 1958. However, the loco is lacking its train and I'm wondering whether it's more likely that the loco is backing out of (possibly) Charing Cross to be serviced. At the time it was a Ramsgate engine and had been since February. It was actually rebuilt in October 1957. In June 1959 it was reallocated to Bricklayers Arms, then Nine Elms in January 1961, Eastleigh in December 1963 and back to Nine Elms in June 1966 where it was withdrawn in October 1966. It went to Buttigeigs, Newport (RO) where it was seen many times between June 1967 and November 1968, reported by WHTS and RO and it was eventually scrapped in mid December 1968. (WHTS).



L1 4-4-0 31757 on a down Kent Coast express at New Cross on 16th June 1958. It was reinstated from store at Ashford in June 1956 and went to Nine Elms in June 1959 where it was withdrawn in December 1961. It then went to Eastleigh Works (RO) where it was observed on 9th March 1963 (LCGB) and was cut up in week ending 23rd March 1963. (RO).



Seen earlier in post #3853 here's a rather blurred Schools 30911 Dover on a down Kent Coast express at New Cross on 16th June 1958. It was allocated to Ramsgate from June 1952 and Nine Elms from June 1959 and Brighton from November 1960, Redhill from January 1962, then Brighton again in December the same year where it was withdrawn later the same month. (SLS). The SLS also recorded that it was seen at Eastleigh awaiting Works or scrap in September 1963 and BR Database confirms a scrapping month of September 1963.



West Country 34001 Exeter previously in post #350 on a down Kent Coast express at New Cross on 16th June 1958. 34001 was rebuilt in November 1957. It was a Bricklayers Arms engine, allocated there from October 1957 so probably a book transfer before the rebuild was complete. It then moved around a bit going to Stewarts Lane in February 1961, Nine Elms in May the same year, then Eastleigh in September 1964 and finally Nine Elms again in January 1965. It was one of the last to be withdrawn, on 6th July 1967 (SLS) and then went to Cashmore's, Newport where it was scrapped in the October. (BR Database).



Brian