Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[Martin Shaw]

It's obviously a vacuum fitted engine, they all were by this date, the ejector exhaust pipe is plainly visible along the boiler so the lack of a front connection is most odd. I think Col's suggestion is likely, a high mileage engine with banging axleboxes which the J39s were noted for shouldn't be used at any speed, passenger trains, and to enforce this the automatic brake was effectively removed whilst allowing the mileage to increase to meet the shopping criteria. I don't think any more useful info can be extracted from this picture.

Whether J39s were regularly used between Witham and Bishops Stortford is a moot question, the small amount of evidence I have suggests not, much more apparent are J17/19/20s which you would expect, the bigger locos being used for longer distance work. If the J39 was under some sort of restriction then its appearance at Braintree is more explainable.

I was aware of the shed bash website, most useful it is too.
Regards
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

This one just finished is, I believe, the photo which precedes the one in post #73 and is of the same loco at the same date, witness the cab side sheet waving about in the breeze. Tim's title is "Braintree Loco Approaches its Train". I propose to add to that the subject as possibly/probably 67212 and a date of probably January 1956. Any advances on that?

67212 is an F5 2-4-2T, was a Stratford engine from 1948 and was withdrawn in May 1958. I have no information about the location of scrapping although Stratford is likely and the date is given as July 1958. (All BR Database).



Brian

 

[oldravendale]

Here's one to possibly put a feline amongst the columbidae. Tim's called this "Braintree. Witham Departure April 1956". The number on the bunker definitely ends with a "7" and it's an F6. However, note those score marks. We've seen them previously in post #82. And the appearance of the dirt and grime on the bunker in the vicinity of the number looks very similar. This one is dated 1956 and the one in post #82 is alleged to be 1955, although both are at Braintree.

I've been suspicious of the reliability of Tim's dates previously and circumstantially I'd argue that both these photos are of the same loco on the same day, so it'll need retitling "circa 1955/56". Also the loco number will have to be revised to 67227 (a Stratford loco from December 1955 to June 1956, being withdrawn ostensibly from Colchester in 1958). So that makes sense. Apologies to Martin, though, because he suggested that the loco in post #66 was likely to be 67227 but I insisted that it was more likely 67228. My dates at Colchester and Stratford are at odds with Martin's too. Mine come from http://brdatabase.info/locoqry.php?action=locodata&type=S&id=600606008&loco=68 and I've found those dates to be questionable on occasion.

My inclination is to be specific that this one is 67227. Therefore the one in post #82 must be the same number and at the same date. I'll call both "Circa 1955 to April 1956". The one in post #66 is possibly 67227 or 67228 so that description will need updating too.

Anyone else want to stir up some more confusion?



Brian

 

[Eastsidepilot]

Anyone else want to stir up some more confusion?



Brian

The loco in post #66 could be 67225 as this was a Colchester engine from Dec. '56.

Col.

 

[Martin Shaw]

Columbidae, there's posh for you, I'm guessing pigeons because my latin education didn't stem much beyond amo etc. Re #102 I having nothing to add other than 67208 is a best guess based on the little known information and could I suppose be pretty much any time between December 55 and March 56 with the snow on the ground.

The F6 number agreed ends in 7 which only gives two choices, 67227 which I also think it is and 67237 which was lastly a Bury St Ed engine and was withdrawn in August 55. The loco in #66 could be 67225 but given definitive evidence of 227 at Braintree and my earlier comments about them not being that frequent, at least from the photo evidence available, then I think its more likely to be 67227. Interestingly yet another engine with a brake bag removed, I presume the chances of it being needed for air braked trains had disappeared by then. I guess #66 and #103 could easily be the same engine on the same day, the sky gives the same appearance in both, but whether #82 is also the same is I think open to question, the outline on the bunker and tanks appears in many pictures and I wouldn't use that alone to identify a specific loco.

Just so you know most of my info is from Yeadon and RCTS and the shedbash website.

Best wishes
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you Martin and Col.

I'm going to have to analyse all the comments here and try to make some sense of them. In particular I'm going to check the pictures in post #82 (img338) and #103 (img341) against one another. I understand your comments about the bunker and tanks, but how likely is it that another loco would have those score marks in precisely the same place on the tanks? I'd also have thought that, if one is 1955 and the other in April 1956 some change in the "weathering" would be apparent. The answer is that I don't know but I'll discuss with Tim to see if we can make a final decision based on his notes at the time.

In my latest email from him he himself comments that "we had some F.6 class locos at Braintree displaced from the Ipswich area by DMU’s and this could well be 1956, not before." If this is the case his dating of post #82 must be suspect.

Incidentally he has an additional comment to go against post #94, the J39. "I think this J.39 was on a sugar beet train bound for the factory at Felstead. I have a small print of a W.D. leaving Braintree station on such a working but the negative has been lost unfortunately."

Fascinating stuff and a rabbit hole I may be down for a long time yet!

Incidentally, Martin, Yeadon is almost certainly a better source for dates than brdatabase.

Brian

 

[Martin Shaw]

Just a bit of added info, I have a small book published by OPC in 1981 which has a photo of a WD 90480 running wrong line through Braintree towards Witham with a train of sugar beet pulp in September 1958. The photo is credited to J.R.Besley, a name I have come across before.

I understand your comments about the bunker and tanks, but how likely is it that another loco would have those score marks in precisely the same place on the tanks?

Actually I think it's highly likely, they are ripples in the platework that arise from the framework of the construction of the bunker and tanks, I would expect them to near enough exactly the same on all the locos. Variations in the deposits of grime is another matter.

Best wishes
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

You are a tower of strength with this info, Martin. You've caused me to look at my (few) published photos of F4s and F6s and you are absolutely correct. That pattern of ripples in the lower tank sides is typical of both classes so I'll not be using those as a reference between individual locos.

Every day's a school day.

Brian

 

[oldravendale]

This is a nice portrait of an F4 by Tim. He's titled it again "Braintree Station Jan 1956". Loco number is easily read as 67212. It still has the air brake connection. However, I don't think I'm seeing the lubricator box to which Martin referred in post #75 - in fact the staining on the smokebox and the cab sheet suggest it's the same loco as in post #73. Does this mean that there were two of the class missing the lubricator box? Certainly 67212 is a logical possibility, as suggested by Martin.

 

[Eastsidepilot]

Brian,
Definitely the same F5 in posts # 55,#73 and #102 as is #109. More than likely all on the same day ?

Col.

 

[Alan]

No one seems to have mentioned it must be winter as there is snow on the ground.

 

[Martin Shaw]

Apart perhaps from me Alan,

December 55 and March 56 with the snow on the ground.

I think I have perpetrated a misinformation. I 've had another look through Yeadon regarding the lubricator box and I've now worked out what I misinterpreted. The photo in Yeadon of 7208 does have an apparently missing box as indeed does 7212 in #109. The box appears in some BR era engines but not in others, but does not appear to be there in earlier days. What has just lit the bulb is that the engines were originally built with the box fixed to the inside of the upstand and at some point in late LNER/early BR days the box was moved to the outside of the upstand to make oiling that bit easier, but at a cost of some copper pipe. This is one of the things that would have came out of sectional council meetings and was I suspect agreed at a relatively local level and undertaken whenever a fitter had a spare moment or two, not too much of that at Stratford in the 50s hence why there is an apparent variation between members of the same class.

So I totally agree with Col it was 7212 all along in all the pics, scrub reference to 7208 unless further info comes to light.

Regards
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

No one seems to have mentioned it must be winter as there is snow on the ground.

Yes, Alan. Tim's recorded a number of these as "January 1956". I suspect all those with snow on the ground were taken on the same day.

Brian

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you, Martin. That all makes perfect sense now, and everything fits around the 7208/7212 situation. I'll adjust the info accordingly.

Brian

 

[Eastsidepilot]

Post #109 I reckon shows 7212 about to re-couple up to the train for the return trip to Witham

Col.

 

[Alan]

Whoops missed that one Martin.

 

[oldravendale]

For today a couple of probably the best images in this set. The first is entitled by Tim "Witham to Braintree Service at Crossing May 1954". There can be no doubt that this is 67227 but unfortunately the shed plate is not readable. The only thing that doesn't easily fit is that BRDatabase advises that this loco was at Cambridge in May 1954. In fact it didn't get to Stratford until December 1955 and by June 1956 was at Colchester being withdrawn in May 1958. As we know sometimes Tim's dates are questionable and this may be such a case. I'll be grateful if you'll check that, Martin.

Edit: At Cressing, not Crossing.



This one carries the description "Braintree. J17 and J15 on freights July 1956". The J15 is 65404 but we have no clue about the J17. 65404 went to Ipswich from Norwich Thorpe in 1951 and was withdrawn in October 1956 so the date just about fits. According to BR Database the loco was scrapped in January 1959 but we don't know where.



Brian

 

[Eastsidepilot]

The only thing that doesn't easily fit is that BRDatabase advises that this loco was at Cambridge in May 1954. In fact it didn't get to Stratford until December 1955 and by June 1956 was at Colchester being withdrawn in May 1958. As we know sometimes Tim's dates are questionable and this may be such a case.

Brian

Brian,
There is the possibility that the loco was on loan to cover for the regular loco perhaps ? but hat would be hard to prove.
The station is Cressing not Crossing , is that just a spelling mistake or is it photo marked as that ?

Col.

 

[oldravendale]

You are right on the money, Col. The neg sleeve says "Cressing". Well spotted!

Brian

 

[Martin Shaw]

Brian
Yeadon has the same dates for 67222, and whilst the engine was allocated to Cambridge in 1954, it could conceivably be on loan to the Stratford district, although they must have been v short to have to borrow from another district. I have info that has positively identified the following F6s on the Braintree branch, 7222,7225,7227,7228, also known is 67219 which looks like an F6 but is an F5.

Re #117/118, is it actually a J17, the tender side looks very high, I think a J19 might be the case, what do you think Col?
Regards
Martin