Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[LarryG]

I know what you mean Brian and fully understand. I rarely take photos nowadays and so spend time processing my old negs instead, while being pleasantly surprised at some of the results. They are posted on F/B pictorial forums in between modelling, reading, courting and piano.....

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you Dave and Tony for the details about that car and the potential confusion with the registration number. The description of the vehicle is a great help in detailing the photo.

Martin - once again thank you for the further and better particulars, duly added to the files.

At Hendon with Royal Scot 46135 The East Lancashire Regiment on a train identified as down parcels 3X19 on 13th December 1962. The third vehicle looks like a passenger brake so I wonder if this actually is a parcels train. The loco was allocated to Holbeck in September 1962 and withdrawn the following December. (SLS). It went to Crewe Works for disposal (RO) and was noted on a scrap road in the works on 16th April 1963. (SLS).



A local down freight at Hendon on 13th December 1962 hauled by 4F 0-6-0 44436. It was shedded at Burton from at least 1948, (BR Database) was still there on October 5th 1963 (Locoshed Book) and was withdrawn in April 1964. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Great Bridge, in September the same year. (BR Database and RO).



Black 5 45450 doing all the work piloted by an unidentified Class 45 diesel on a down express at Hendon on 13th December 1962. I wonder if Tim has the number right as 45450 had been an Annesley loco since January 1960 and was still there according to the Locoshed book for 5th October 1963. However, by the date of the photo and with Neasden Shed closed Cricklewood was servicing GCR locos at the London end of things and the loco could have been “borrowed”. It transferred to Lostock Hall in July 1965 where it was withdrawn in November 1967. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Great Bridge, in February 1968. (BR Database).



Another in the series of photos in Hyde Park on an unknown date but believed to be the London – Brighton run. This time the DVLA tells us that MI308 is another Ford Model T but in black.



Hyde Park and unknown date and again possibly the London to Brighton run. The best the DVLA can tell us about AM4417 is that it’s a Ford and it’s red.



Probably the London to Brighton run and again in Hyde Park. The main subject is BE1480, another Ford Model T but this time in green. Following is CJ1491, yet another Ford for which the DVLA don’t supply a model type but this time in black.



Brian

 

[Heather Kay]

The original London to Brighton run is for vehicles registered before 1905. That, plus the preponderance of Fords in Tim's photos, leads me to think it's a club run of some kind, but nothing to do with the famous one.

Another Hillman in the convoy, which I will hazard a guess at being a Minx Series One.

 

[daifly]

The couple in AM4417 had a busy year of rallying in 1961. In September, they were photographed in Piedmont, Italy.

Image of Mature couple near a ford vintage car, 1961 (b/w photo) by Bollarino, Franco (1940-2015)

Download stock image by Franco Bollarino - Mature couple near a ford vintage car, 1961 - High quality fine art images, pictures, photos and videos from Bridgeman Images. Experts in licensing art, culture and history images.

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Dave

 

[Martin Shaw]

46135 Originally named "Samson" and renamed along with along with quite a few of the class in 1936. I'm not at all certain what prompted this renaming, either something political happened or the army complained. Speculation welcomed. It dotted around WCML northern english sheds a fair bit, wdn 29/12/62, Scrapped at Crewe works 4/63.
3X19 would be a parcels or ECS train.

45450 Built by Armstrong Whitworth. it went to Leicester Central on 24/10/59 and Annesley on 9/1/60. I suspect it's been borrowed to provide train heating in lieu of a failed boiler in the paraffin burner, or possibly hitching a ride home although this feels less likely.

Martin

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks Heather. Despite the fact that there are pretty well only Fords at Hyde Park I really didn't consider a Model T rally. I'll bet you are correct, though, so that will now become the possibility for the descriptions rather than the London - Brighton. Date still unknown and no real clues either but I'm guessing mid sixties. The Hillman also brings back memories... A friend had the model behind the Model T and we were driving back from Camden where I'd been helping in his father's shop when one of the rear springs came up through the floor. The AA/RAC came out and in order to get the thing home they lashed a bit of timber to the underframe for the spring shackle to ride on. It got us home but the car, inevitably, went for scrap...

Well found, Dave. This gives some sort of credence to Tim's photos being in the sixties. The car behind AM4417 is, I seem to remember, a Standard Vanguard. (Reviewing Heather's comments above I suspect this is the Hillman and not a Standard at all). Looking at that photo again in the middle distance appears to be the rear of a Vauxhall FB which was introduced in 1961 and replaced by the FC in 1966. If that's so it really narrows down the date window.

Martin - once again thanks for the further and better particulars. My research in to 46135 didn't find a "Samson" although since I rather skate over the surface of such references, wishing to avoid falling down any more rabbit holes that's not really surprising. I'd go along with the use of the Black 5 for heating except that it appears to be working hard. On the other hand, if it was because of a diesel failure I'd expect the diesel to be on the inside as train engine. I'll speculate no further!

Jubilee 45668 Madden on an up Sheffield train at Hendon Station on 13th December 1962. This had been allocated to Burton since December 1961 and was withdrawn from there in December 1963. (SLS). It went to Crewe Works where it was observed at the end of January 1964 (WHTS) and was scrapped the same month. (BR Database).



An unidentified 9F on freight at Cricklewood on 13th December 1962.

Edit: Location now known to be Hendon.



Back at Hendon Station and another Jubilee, this time 45557 New Brunswick on 13th December 1962. This was another loco allocated to Burton where it had been since December the previous year. It moved to Derby in July 1964 and was withdrawn from there in September the same year. (SLS). It was disposed of in December 1964 at Cashmore’s, Great Bridge.



Now believed to be possibly a Ford Model T rally in Hyde Park at an unknown date. I’ve been unable to identify this vehicle and it’s unfortunate that the registration plate is partially obscured. I’ve checked through the KX4951-9 series with the DVLA but it’s not there although the last three numbers are open to conjecture. I have to say that if I was going on a run in a veteran/vintage rally this is the car I’d choose!



For the car and London Street enthusiasts I’m sorry to say that this is the final non-railway subject – at least until such time as I turn up some more surprises from the TM files. Again, potentially a Model T Ford rally and photographed in Hyde Park at an unknown date. There may be a clue to the vehicle’s antecedents as T1912 is advised by the DVLA as a Ford in black, but I’ll bet it’s a Model T from 1912. Views may vary!



Brian

 

[simond]

If it’s a personalised reg, it could be both, though the wings & scuttle appear pale.

 

[LarryG]

It's funny how we got back to the upright driving position as in those vintage cars with SUV's. The old cars were probably around 50 years old when photographed in the 1960s. If my Standard 8 or Rover 60 were still on the road today they would be 70 years old! Vintage?

 

[AJC]

I always thought trade plates ended with PW, but maybe VW was also used - that would certainly explain the two sets of plates.

They might well in Norfolk (it’s one of the Norfolk marks), but probably not elsewhere - I’d always thought trade plates were issued by the local registration office? Pretty sure the ones I saw growing up were the usual Y, YA, YB, YC, YD you’d expect in Somerset.

Adam

 

[Pete_S]

The Hyde Park shots aren't... they're St. James' Park & were taken in Birdcage walk SW1 - the backdrop is Wellington Barracks and the low building with the columns is the eastermost lodge.



Pete S.

 

[Eastsidepilot]

Talking of Model 'T' Fords, my Great Grandfathers' first lorry c '22


Col.

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks for the comment, Simon. It doesn't confirm the vehicle but adds to the description. Thanks too, Larry. I'd never considered the driving positions of today's SUVs but (in the main) they certainly don't allow you to slouch! As for car ages... I had a Rover 90 which would now be 67 years old!

I appreciate the comment about the registration marks, Adam. Added to the info against that photo.

Pete. You rotter! You wait until I've finished and then give me a correction which means I have to go back to every description against these photos. I'm joking, of course, and that correction is quite important in the general scheme of things. When you consider where we've come from with this group of photos - unknown vehicles, unknown date, unconfirmed location - to knowing all these broad details and sometimes very specific information it's quite remarkable progress. Thanks to all.

That's a cracking picture, Col. It'd be around 40 years after that when my father bought his first car....

An unidentified Jubilee with an exceptionally short name plate passing Cricklewood Station on a passenger train on 13th December 1962.



8F 2-8-0 48678 returning coal empties through Cricklewood Yard on 13th December 1962. It was a Cricklewood engine from the end of May 1959 and moved around a lot thereafter, the list being: Annesley in May 1963, Burton May 1964, Kirkby in Ashfield March 1965, Westhouses March 1966, Springs Branch Wigan November 1966 and finally Newton Heath December 1967 where it was withdrawn in June 1968. (SLS). It then went to Draper’s, Hull, (RO) where it was scrapped on 18th November 1968. (BR Database).



9F 2-10-0 92125 light engine in Cricklewood Yard on 13th December 1962. It was a Kettering engine from the end of December 1960, then allocated to Saltley in December 1963, Croes Newydd in June 1966 and finally Carlisle Kingmoor in December 1966 where it was withdrawn a year later (SLS) going to Arnott Young, Carmyle, where it was scrapped in April 1968. (BR Database).



Brian

 

[Genghis]

I am guessing that some of the sleuths here will be able to identify the Jubilee with the short name. I think the tender will help.

That 9F is a great candidate for a 'demonstrate your skills in weathering' competition.

 

[LarryG]

Short name, short Tender.

 

[Ian@StEnochs]

Should diesels in steam era photos be described by their tops designation? I still think of 'Peak' rather than cl45. Am I being too picky?
Ian

 

[daifly]

With a lot of magnification & squinting, it looks like 45642 Boscawen. Photograph here in 1963:

https://flic.kr/p/BmvLXG

Dave

 

[daifly]

Should diesels in steam era photos be described by their tops designation? I still think of 'Peak' rather than cl45. Am I being too picky?
Ian

Not at all. The unfortunate habit of using TOPS designations for e.g. WR North British Type 2s is particularly irksome. They were never referred to as anything other than Type 2s or very occasionally Baby Warships. Only those people that weren't there call them Class 22s!

Dave

 

[timbowales]

Digging my ABC out, out of 190 Jubilees, seven had four character names:-
45572 Eire,
45607 Fiji,
45633 Aden,
45644 Howe,
45654 Hood,
45689 Ajax &
45698 Mars
Tim T

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Should diesels in steam era photos be described by their tops designation? I still think of 'Peak' rather than cl45. Am I being too picky?
Ian

Ah, the Peaks were technically the ten class 44 (Sulzer Type 4) diesels as they were the only ones named after English and Welsh mountains.

Classes 45 and 46 then fell into the same naming identification.

Ideally in pre TOPS photos both classification should be used Sulzer Type 4/Peak/cl 44, 45 or 46 which would then make sense to viewers of all ages.

 

[daifly]

The angular size of many Jubilee nameplates is pretty small - the letters weren't very large! I suspect that Brian may have inadvertently created a smokescreen by suggesting a 'short' name. Click on the photo of Boscawen above. The plate is still very small but carries 8 letters!

Dave