Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[AJC]

Haha - I have no interest in the loco or wagon , however the location.....

I would say this is taken at the bridge where the North London Line crosses the Central line at the back of Old Oak Common (there were a few footpaths in the area) and only started looking as a third rail is visible suggested by the cables and hangers indicating it's somewhere on the North London Line.

The annotated the NLS extract of the OS 1:2,500 A ed. 1848-1973 series map to show the location. At this period the North London Line was electrified at 630V DC 3rd rail (same as LT) for it's route. Today it is electrified at 25kV AC fron Stratford to Acton Central where it changes over to 630v DC third rail towards Richmond. North Acton Central Line Station is about 340m (370 yards) down the line under the bridge to the left as viewed.

In the background of the photo there appears to be some shear legs/derrick which would be commensurate with the Scrap Metal Yard shown on the map extract.

View attachment 214295

Regarding the area containing the scrap metal yard off Victoria Road below is an extract from British History On-Line Acton: Economic history A History of the County of Middlesex: Volume 7, Acton, Chiswick, Ealing and Brentford, West Twyford, Willesden Originally published by Victoria County History, London, 1982. Acton: Economic history | British History Online

During the First World War, Park Royal was used as a large horse compound for the Royal Army Service Corps. (fn. 120) Munitions factories, employing mainly Willesden residents, were built in Willesden Lane and Victoria Road, Acton, and closed towards the end of 1918, (fn. 121) becoming derelict. In 1928 the government sold 5 a. with their buildings to Allnatt Ltd., for scrap metal sorting, and offers received for the premises revealed a growing demand for small ready-built factories. (fn. 122)

Ah, you've lit on the day job! The Victoria County History (VCH) is my manor (for my sins, I'm its General Editor as the series continues today). Nice to see it deployed in fleshing out this sort of observation.

Adam

 

[Roger Pound]

The swapping of Stanier tenders from 8F's to 'Jubilees ' was not uncommon in the East Midlands at one time as I recall from my early teens. (Now well over sixty years past...........!). IMHO the Fowler tender looked completely mismatched with either class of loco, both only looking 'right' with the Stanier tender in tow. Not unlike the awkward appearance of Fowler tenders as fitted to 'Crab' 2-6-0's, insisted upon by the heavy hand of the ex-Midland authority then extant at Derby!

Roger.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Three more of Ivatt Class 4 2-6-0 43118 in the shed yard at Kentish Town on 8th October 1962. An observation that in the third shot the reporting number which looks like 3G06 is on the tender rather than the loco. This suggests to me that it may be used tender first on empty stock from St Pancras, so why not turn the loco such that it's smokebox leading but I have no knowledge of what sort of train this reporting number represents?

On enlargement the train description code is 3C06. Based on the 1961 descriptions (assuming no change for 1962) this would have been:

3 - indicates the type of train - Parcels, fish, fruit, livestock, milk or other perishable train composed entirely of vehicles conforming to coaching stock requirements; empty coaching stock.
C - indicates the destination - St Pancras or Marylebone or Manchester North.
06 - train identifier - separates this from other trains. From reading various notes I think would have been the 6th train with the 3C prefix (for suburban services this could be the route).

Three more of Ivatt Class 4 2-6-0 43118 in the shed yard at Kentish Town on 8th October 1962. An observation that in the third shot the reporting number which looks like 3G06 is on the tender rather than the loco. This suggests to me that it may be used tender first on empty stock from St Pancras, so why not turn the loco such that it's smokebox leading but I have no knowledge of what sort of train this reporting number represents?

My guess is it was more likely to have been a parcels and/or ECS working to St Pancras. Then possibly the crew shoved the headcode on the tender for it's short trip from St Pancras to Kentish Town, and as the loco was designed for tender first running why waste time turning it.

I also see the tender carries a tunnel icicle breaker frame on the rear of the bunker. Well I assume that is what it is.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Ah, you've lit on the day job! The Victoria County History (VCH) is my manor (for my sins, I'm its General Editor as the series continues today). Nice to see it deployed in fleshing out this sort of observation.

It was an interesting journey finding this information - leading to yet another rabbit hole .

After initially working out the location of the photo and noting from the map there was a scrap metal yard I noticed the name Websters between the leading wagon wheels. Then I set about using this to look for further information to corrobate the location.

Initial searches for Websters scrap merchants revealed nothing then a wider search for scrap metal in Victoria Road/Old Oak Common found the BHO/VCH data.

The rabbit hole being the history of this scrap yard site (part of the Park Royal WWI horse compound and munitions factories complex) and it becoming effectively a late 1920s industrial estate - which sent me back to the OS map to look at the siting of the small factory units on what was the bottom right hand corner of the 1930s Park Royal industrial estate.

All fascinating stuff.

 

[Arun Sharma]

Re: the 8F at Willesden - Both 48601 and 48603 were Willesden 'Starred' 8Fs and both had rivetted Fowler 3500 gal tenders.
I was at ModelWorld Live at the NEC today - a couple of the stands had rather well made, and weathered, Trumpeter ?1/35scale models of the class 52 Kriegslok that has previously appeared in these pages.
Picture of one of them att:


The cab roof is sitting on the tender to show the interior. One of the other models actually has a single-barrel 20mm AA cannon mounted on the top of the tender aft of the coal area.

*Sorry Martin I hadn't noticed your mention of the starred 8Fs at Willesden.

 

[Barry37]

Yes, it’s a very interesting vehicle, probably one of those built for the Ministry of War Transport (I think what BR dubbed dia. 1/103, or maybe a 1/105 - BR 16T Mineral early MoWT independent brakes - check the varied repair patterns). The riveted repairs are fairly routine, but look as though they came in two stages, the most recent being marked by the dark - probably black - paint over them. In other words, the bottom rotted out twice, or perhaps the sides first and then the floor. EDIT: on a second look, it looks as though the side plate is riveted to a folded sheet, which hints at a floor repair. The welded door probably comes from the first repair phase.

Note that the bottom door markings are applied directly to the grey livery colour. Not that unusual, but not what’s in the spec’.

We can’t tell what sort of end door it has, but it was probably built with a pressed steel one.

A good spot!

Adam

It could also possibly be a D188 LNER Mineral wagon - these were pretty similar to the MoWT wagons. They often gained welded doors in later life, presumably because the tooling for the pressed type had worn out.

 

[AJC]

It could also possibly be a D188 LNER Mineral wagon - these were pretty similar to the MoWT wagons. They often gained welded doors in later life, presumably because the tooling for the pressed type had worn out.

It could indeed, but it's pretty hard to tell, one way or the other.

Adam

 

[Overseer]

Johnson MR 0-6-0T 47202 and Fowler 3P 2-6-2T 40022 in store at Kentish Town on 8th October 1962. One might quite reasonably expect that both would be withdrawn but that wasn’t the case. 47202 had been allocated to Kentish Town since January 1950 and moved to Cricklewood in September 1962 although as we have photographic evidence that it was physically at Kentish Town that was a book transfer yet to happen in reality. Coincidentally I have a photo of my own of the loco at Cricklewood in September 1963 and it still has sacking over the chimney so remained in store. It moved to Gorton in November 1963 and Fleetwood in March 1964. That was followed by Agecroft in October 1965 and Newton Heath in August 1966 where it was withdrawn in the following December. (SLS). I wonder if it ever turned a wheel at those later depots in service. It then went to Ward’s, Beighton, Sheffield (RO) where it was scrapped in April 1967. 40022 however was on it’s way to withdrawal. It was allocated to Kentish Town in March 1961 and then Cricklewood in September 1962 where it’s unlikely it ever worked and was formally withdrawn in December the same year. Railway Observer reported it in Derby Works and BR Database advise it was scrapped in March 1963 although WHTS reported it was photographed in April.

View attachment 214201

Last seen in post #874 is Jinty 47501 shunting at Willesden on 4th October 1962. Two photos here of this long term resident of Willesden having been there since December 1957. 47501 was withdrawn from Willesden in September 1964 SLS) and was scrapped at Cohens Kettering in February 1965. (BR Database).

View attachment 214202

View attachment 214203

Royal Scot 46111 Royal Fusilier in the roundhouse at Willesden on 4th October 1962 complete with 1A (Willesden) shed plate. This was last in post #1752. It was allocated to Willesden in July 1961 and was one of that sorry number moving to Annesley in February 1963. It was withdrawn in September. (SLS). It went to Crewe (WHTS) where it was scrapped in November 1963. (BR Database). It was observed within the works in October. (WHTS).

View attachment 214204

Brian

Some of us are interested in the wagons which make bit part appearances in the photos. No one has mentioned the lovely photos of the NE fruit van accompanied by a Southern even planked van with XP 9-0 wheelbase branding, pity the number of the SR van is not visible - is it really 9' wheelbase and if so why the XP branding?

Anyone know more about the tank wagons in the background in the previous post?

And the NE Toad partially obscured by the King in post 3466. Is it a Toad B retro fitted with steel duckets, or a Toad E with Toad B style ends?

 

[AJC]

Some of us are interested in the wagons which make bit part appearances in the photos. No one has mentioned the lovely photos of the NE fruit van accompanied by a Southern even planked van with XP 9-0 wheelbase branding, pity the number of the SR van is not visible - is it really 9' wheelbase and if so why the XP branding?

Anyone know more about the tank wagons in the background in the previous post?

And the NE Toad partially obscured by the King in post 3466. Is it a Toad B retro fitted with steel duckets, or a Toad E with Toad B style ends?

I’d made a note to come back to the fruit van, but I’ve been busy! I think the Toad has steel duckets, though it’s difficult to tell.

I’m pretty certain that the SR van is a 10’ wb example with Morton brakes(?). All the fitted versions with strip tie bars would have been 10’ - the SR ones had rod - and the 9’ fitted had 8 shoe gear.

I had missed the tank wagons altogether, they’re a bit of a mystery. Presumably PO? The boards being to hold the owners name visibly?

Adam

 

[Overseer]

I think the Toad has steel duckets, though it’s difficult to tell.

I am sure it has, the small handrail to hold onto while cleaning the ducket window is visible on the body side, wooden ducket versions had the handrail on the end of the ducket.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

I’m pretty certain that the SR van is a 10’ wb example with Morton brakes(?). All the fitted versions with strip tie bars would have been 10’ - the SR ones had rod - and the 9’ fitted had 8 shoe gear.

On enlargement of the vans the SR van does have a 9'0'' WB (or possibly 9'6'' with the top of the 6 missing).



I've looked at my Mike King drawings and the 9' wb even plank vans were built at Lancing in 1927.

Example numbering
45908-46107 12T unfitted 4 brake shoes 2 brake levers**
47201-47300 12T unfitted 4 brake shoes 2 brake levers**
47301-47400 12T fitted 8 brake shoes 2 brake levers**
46774-46923 10T fitted 8 brake shoes 2 brake levers
44551 10T unfitted 4 brake shoes 2 brake levers
48007 12T fitted 8 brake shoes 2 brake levers

** 100 vans mainly from these batches were converted to cross channel ferry vans in 1934/5

Later batches built at Eastleigh in 1936 (even plank) and 1939 (uneven plank) were on a 10' wb. The original SECR even plank design was on a 9'6'' wb.

 

[AJC]

On enlargement of the vans the SR van does have a 9'0'' WB (or possibly 9'6'' with the top of the 6 missing).

View attachment 214386

I've looked at my Mike King drawings and the 9' wb even plank vans were built at Lancing in 1927.

Example numbering
45908-46107 12T unfitted 4 brake shoes 2 brake levers**
47201-47300 12T unfitted 4 brake shoes 2 brake levers**
47301-47400 12T fitted 8 brake shoes 2 brake levers**
46774-46923 10T fitted 8 brake shoes 2 brake levers
44551 10T unfitted 4 brake shoes 2 brake levers
48007 12T fitted 8 brake shoes 2 brake levers

** 100 vans mainly from these batches were converted to cross channel ferry vans in 1934/5

Later batches built at Eastleigh in 1936 (even plank) and 1939 (uneven plank) were on a 10' wb. The original SECR even plank design was on a 9'6'' wb.

Ah, sorry, wrong van! I was looking - very late at night - at the SR van behind a loco visible in another shot, The one illustrated is almost certainly one of the 8 shoe examples and the XP a simple error - it happened.

Adam

 

[76043]

@AJC

The mystery SR wagon, I reckon it's a Diagram 1458. 10' wheelbase, incorrectly lettered by BR. Surely it can't be 8 shoe because there's a tie rod fitted? It does possibly show the slightly complicated brake lever arrangement of the 1458 diagram.

Gleamed this from volume 4 of Larkin's Acquired BR book.

Just surmising....
Tony

 

[Martin Shaw]

In between cleaning the oven which is one of the most thankless domestic tasks going I have had a look at the strange bedstead structure at the rear of the coal space on 4MT tenders. They first appeared in 1961 on about 20 locos all allocated to the LM region. There are two schools of thought as to their reason, firstly, they were to assist the prevention of coal being outside the loading gauge which is plausible, or secondly, they were somehow intended to prevent staff contacting the OHLE. This seems the more likely although I can't see how it can have been effective, I suspect in sympathy with the mores of the time, one or two serious incidents and word of mouth would have been just as effective.
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

Larry - your comment reminds me of the one and only time I had a Fowler 2-6-2T on a train and that was from Mill Hill to Luton. I remember a new D61XX in the sidings there which, in the light of their subsequent overall performance, I successfully put the mockers on.

I like the Caprotti 5s as well, Dave, but only because they were all so exceedingly ugly and therefore characterful.

Martin, Roger and Arun - thanks for yours about likely 8F candidates and the treatise on Fowler tenders.

Yorkshire Dave. Thanks for yours about that reporting number. It potentially explains a lot of the whys and wherefores. Also about the "ice breaker" on the Flying Pig. Followed by Martin's which offers an alternative explanation.

Graham, Adam, Barry, Overseer, and Yorkshire Dave - many thanks for so much about the wagons and Toad which I most certainly otherwise would not have known. One way or another all this will be wound in to the descriptions. There's another of 47501 with those wagons upcoming in the next post which may help in the final identification.

And Dave again. Your work in determining the exact location of that photo (and there are more to come) is valued. And thanks, Adam, for your contribution in helping to ensure those maps are available.

I'm now going to correlate and then add to the descriptions all I've learned from the above. This will, I know, take some time but it's great stuff and fills a number of gaps in the info so thank you all. More photos forthcoming but perhaps not today.

Brian

 

[Dave Holt]

I'm sure I can see brake shoes either side of each wheel, so definitely an 8 shoe type. I think the apparent tie rod is actually the head of the far rail. No tie rod connected to the W irons that I can see.
Dave.

 

[76043]

I'm sure I can see brake shoes either side of each wheel, so definitely an 8 shoe type. I think the apparent tie rod is actually the head of the far rail. No tie rod connected to the W irons that I can see.
Dave.

Well, apparently there's another shot coming which will clear it up, so we'll see.
Tony

 

[oldravendale]

Yes, there is indeed another picture of the Jinty shunting coming up in this post but whether it will answer the query I really don't know.

Hall 5995 Wick Hall on an Evesham to Kensington milk train at Acton on 4th October 1962. The loco had been at Oxley since November 1950 and was withdrawn at the end of April 1963. (SLS). There were several viewings of the loco on the dump at Swindon and it was reportedly scrapped on 13th July 1963 (WHTS) although BR Database report scrapping in June. I remember seeing milk trains but never with a regular brake van - usually the Guard was in a bogie van of some sort which I assumed carried milk churns. Note also the "Webster" buildings in the background as detailed by Yorkshire Dave in post #3484 and which help to identify the location precisely. Thank you Dave!



We saw this loco last in post #3094 on shed at Old Oak. Here 6169 is light engine at Acton on 4th October 1962. It had been a Southall engine but was then allocated to Old Oak in November 1960 which probably coincided with the conversion of local services around London to DMUs. After Old Oak it went to Radyr in May 1964 and finally Worcester a month later where it was withdrawn in November 1965. (SLS). It was in store at Worcester from November 1965 until January 1966 and observed at Buttigieg's, Newport, in March 1966. (WHTS). BR Database report it as scrapped in February 1966. The Railway Observer reported it still in store at Worcester on 26th January 1966 so a scrapping date of a month or so later seems more likely.



Finally for today here's the one of the Jinty and wagons. 47501 was seen as recently as post #3471 and this is the same train being shunted at Willesden on 4th October 1962. Just as a reminder 47501 had been at Willesden since December 1957 and was withdrawn from Willesden in September 1964 (SLS). It was scrapped at Cohens Kettering in February 1965. (BR Database).



Brian

 

[76043]

Great shot of the milk train, I had read that brake vans were sometimes used when nothing else was available. So great to see, but do we think this might not be the full Evesham to Kensington turn, rather a trip working from somewhere more local?

I do think the SR van is a 10' wheelbase diagram 1458.
Cheers
Tony

 

[Barry37]

Great shot of the milk train, I had read that brake vans were sometimes used when nothing else was available. So great to see, but do we think this might not be the full Evesham to Kensington turn, rather a trip working from somewhere more local?

I do think the SR van is a 10' wheelbase diagram 1458.
Cheers
Tony

Does seem to be D1458, though the tiebar is somewhat more substantial than on the two examples illustrated in OPC Southern Wagons Vol.4.
It would have been one of the middle-build period of D1458 with Morton brakes, whereas earlier vans had "lift-link" brakelevers, and later ones (from end of 1938) had 2+2 uneven planks.