Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[oldravendale]

Thanks for yours about Sir John Moore, Simon @simond . I knew nothing of the chap until now!

As for the 9F I'd certainly not noted the AWS fittings. Thanks for that, Arun.

On a down freight at Potters Bar on 7th July 1962 is WD 2-8-0 90165. This had been on New England’s allocation since June 1949, then Frodingham in October 1962, Mexborough in February 1963 and Doncaster in October the same year where it was withdrawn in April 1964. (SLS). It was scrapped in January 1965 at W E Smiths, Ecclesfield. (BR Database).



A4 60007 Sir Nigel Gresley on a down semi fast train at Potters Bar on 7th July 1962. We’ve seen this loco on here more often than you can shake the proverbial stick at and most recently in posts #3004 and #4053. It had been a Kings Cross engine since June 1950, moving to New England in June 1963 thence to St Margarets in November and then Aberdeen Ferryhill in August 1964 where it was withdrawn at the beginning of February 1966. (SLS). For information about its life in preservation see 60007 Sir Nigel Gresley (LNER 4498, LNER 600, LNER 7 & BR 60007)



9F 92175 on a down fitted freight at Hornsey on 7th July 1962. The loco was allocated to Doncaster when new in February 1958 (BR Database) and was withdrawn in May 1964 (BR Database and SLS) after a scandalously short life of six years. It was scrapped at T W Ward, Killamarsh, in February 1965.



Jubilee 45689 Ajax on an up Windermere train at North Wembley on 13th July 1962. The Jubilee was allocated to Edge Hill in April 1958, then to Llandudno Junction in October 1964 before withdrawal in December the same year. (SLS). The SLS reports it was transferred to Crewe North after withdrawal, in January 1965. However, WHTS reports the loco as stored at Llandudno Junction between December 1964 and April 1965. The loco was scrapped in May 1965 (BR Database) but I have no information to confirm where.



Brian

 

[oldravendale]

This is sort of a prototype question so I'll bung it in here as some of my readers are coaching specialists!

I have a 90 year old friend who is now recording her life memories. One she explains thus: "As you know I have been recalling early childhood memories and committing them to paper, One such is the first time that I remember seeing a train and locomotive. Whilst the engine was a little frightening the coaches were intriguing. I seem to remember wooden panelling, shiny with varnish on a lightish colour wood, a big letter 3 on the door, and fascinating small windows running along the top of the coaches, obviously clerestory, embellished with a black whirling ventilator on the top
Do you think that this kind of stock might have still been in use in 1937, or is it a figment of my imagination?
It was Deal Station, and my grandmother had come from Brookwood."

I don't know whether the varnished panelling was the outside of the coach or more likely the interior - neither do I know whether this was compartment stock.

All suggestions will be gratefully received.

Brian

 

[simond]

Obviously clerestory? Not toplights, or the SE variant thereof? Or some other company?

I’m assuming SE given “Deal station” but Brookwood is the other side of London, 100 miles away?

Varnished wooden panelling with a big “3” suggests teak stock perhaps?

There were through coaches from Margate to Birkenhead years ago, so “foreign” stock might not have been such a rarity.

A most interesting rabbit hole!

 

[Heather Kay]

There’s a Brookwood in Surrey, near Pirbright. Perhaps more famous these days for the London Necropolis, aka Brookwood Cemetery.

As to the coaches, not a clue. As Simon says, it could possibly have been a through working.

 

[SimonT]

Brookwood Cemetery is the HQ of the Commonwealth War Graves Commision. Both they and the Americans have cemeteries there. We did a their guided tour there in 2018 and the station and railway were discussed. Many corpses were moved that way out of central London.

 

[40057]

Brookwood Cemetery is the HQ of the Commonwealth War Graves Commision. Both they and the Americans have cemeteries there. We did a their guided tour there in 2018 and the station and railway were discussed. Many corpses were moved that way out of central London.

On the plus side, some rare track in that final journey.

 

[Barry37]

Thanks for yours about Sir John Moore, Simon @simond . I knew nothing of the chap until now!

As for the 9F I'd certainly not noted the AWS fittings. Thanks for that, Arun.

On a down freight at Potters Bar on 7th July 1962 is WD 2-8-0 90165. This had been on New England’s allocation since June 1949, then Frodingham in October 1962, Mexborough in February 1963 and Doncaster in October the same year where it was withdrawn in April 1964. (SLS). It was scrapped in January 1965 at W E Smiths, Ecclesfield. (BR Database).

View attachment 226867

A4 60007 Sir Nigel Gresley on a down semi fast train at Potters Bar on 7th July 1962. We’ve seen this loco on here more often than you can shake the proverbial stick at and most recently in posts #3004 and #4053. It had been a Kings Cross engine since June 1950, moving to New England in June 1963 thence to St Margarets in November and then Aberdeen Ferryhill in August 1964 where it was withdrawn at the beginning of February 1966. (SLS). For information about its life in preservation see 60007 Sir Nigel Gresley (LNER 4498, LNER 600, LNER 7 & BR 60007)

View attachment 226868

9F 92175 on a down fitted freight at Hornsey on 7th July 1962. The loco was allocated to Doncaster when new in February 1958 (BR Database) and was withdrawn in May 1964 (BR Database and SLS) after a scandalously short life of six years. It was scrapped at T W Ward, Killamarsh, in February 1965.

View attachment 226869

Jubilee 45689 Ajax on an up Windermere train at North Wembley on 13th July 1962. The Jubilee was allocated to Edge Hill in April 1958, then to Llandudno Junction in October 1964 before withdrawal in December the same year. (SLS). The SLS reports it was transferred to Crewe North after withdrawal, in January 1965. However, WHTS reports the loco as stored at Llandudno Junction between December 1964 and April 1965. The loco was scrapped in May 1965 (BR Database) but I have no information to confirm where.

View attachment 226870

Brian

In the WD 90165 photo, the middle one of the three cattle wagons appears to be an ex-LNER wagon. The cattle wagons are followed by an extra BR brake van.
Also on the left, there's a fairly new-looking concrete platelayer's hut – I wonder when new huts stopped being installed.

 

[AJC]

In the WD 90165 photo, the middle one of the three cattle wagons appears to be an ex-LNER wagon. The cattle wagons are followed by an extra BR brake van.
Also on the left, there's a fairly new-looking concrete platelayer's hut – I wonder when new huts stopped being installed.

It's not LNER - the diagonals go the wrong way and the lever doesn't cross the axlebox. The absence of a tie bar suggests that It's Southern, in design, anyway, a diagram 1530. I don't think I've seen a picture of one in traffic before - Mike King suggests that they built far too many and stowed them in sidings across the system (where they do appear in pictures quite often, once you start looking!).

Adam

 

[timbowales]

In the WD 90165 photo, the middle one of the three cattle wagons appears to be an ex-LNER wagon. The cattle wagons are followed by an extra BR brake van.
Also on the left, there's a fairly new-looking concrete platelayer's hut – I wonder when new huts stopped being installed.

That's actually quite a modeller's train. Just 11 wagons in total, including two brake vans!

 

[Barry37]

It's not LNER - the diagonals go the wrong way and the lever doesn't cross the axlebox. The absence of a tie bar suggests that It's Southern, in design, anyway, a diagram 1530. I don't think I've seen a picture of one in traffic before - Mike King suggests that they built far too many and stowed them in sidings across the system.

Adam

I stand corrected - went by the full-height doors, and forgot to look at the SR wagons book.
I have a postcard view of Rye Harbour that includes the end of the Harbour branch. Half-built vans are being stored there - all the metal work, but no planks. Presumably a timber shortage, but being a postcard, it doesn't have a date.

 

[Barry37]

That's actually quite a modeller's train. Just 11 wagons in total, including two brake vans!

The open wagon after the first brake van, appears to be carrying a C (or less likely a D) BR or ex-LMS open container. The last wagon seems to be sheeted.

 

[Martin Shaw]

Re 45689 Ajax, the info I have (both Irwell & Longworth) have the loco allocated to Llandudno Junc in Sep 64 which I suspect was storage and wdn
w/e 12/12/64 after a paper transfer to Crewe North. Where and when it was cut up I can offer absolutely nothing beyond noting that a lot were scrapped by Cashmores.
Martin

 

[Arun Sharma]

Re 45689 Ajax, the info I have (both Irwell & Longworth) have the loco allocated to Llandudno Junc in Sep 64 which I suspect was storage and wdn
w/e 12/12/64 after a paper transfer to Crewe North. Where and when it was cut up I can offer absolutely nothing beyond noting that a lot were scrapped by Cashmores.
Martin

WHTS has Ajax being cut up by Wards, Beighton, Sheffield in May 1965 following storage at Llandudno Jcn from Dec 64 to April 65. The given dates were usually week ending [?month ending?] dates so the actual transfers could have been any day during that week or month.

 

[Martin Shaw]

Arun
The loco was allocated to Llandudno Junc in September 64 so it was already there in December. Whilst it might nominally have been usable in practice it was almost certainly already stored when on paper it was transferred from the running dept to the accountants as a redundant asset to be disposed of, and its allocation to Crewe North for scrapping is again matter of accountancy than engineering. My post does say week ending (w/e) but thank you for the reminder. My info on Wards doesn't have this particular Jubilee scrapped there, but it may have been of course.
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you Simons, @simond and @SimonT and Heather @Heather Kay for your help re that coaching stock and Brookwood. I've asked for some more info so we'll see what's forthcoming. Also @40057 that wry comment made me smile.

Barry @Barry37, Adam @AJC and Tim @timbowales many thanks for putting together so much info on that WD train. Also, Barry, re your comment about the platelayers' hut. It appears in several of Tim's recent photos and possibly with more detail - see img3379 in post #4178, img3297 in post #4094 and img3281 in post #4082 as examples.

Martin @Martin Shaw and Arun. Thanks to you both for the further and better info about Ajax. How I missed the scrapyard ID I don't know, as I looked at the WHTS site... I must've been looking at the wrong entry when I got that far down the history but we'll never know. Sometimes I worry about myself... (But not very often .

Royal Scot 46110 Grenadier Guardsman on a down fitted freight at North Wembley on 13th July 1962. This has been on these pages quite recently, in posts #2595 and #2631. 46110 belonged to Edge Hill at the time and moved to Carlisle Kingmoor in July 1963 where it was withdrawn in February 1964. (SLS). It was scrapped at J McWilliams, Shettleston by the end of December. (Rail UK). Ex LMS DC unit on the down Watford line in the right background.



Royal Scot 46167 The Hertfordshire Regiment on an up extra at North Wembley on 13th July 1962. The loco was allocated to Crewe North in June 1962, then Holyhead in October the same year, Crewe North again in March, Holyhead in May, Willesden in July and Annesley in October – all in 1963 – before withdrawal in April 1964. (SLS). It was seen at Annesley in store on 17th May and then at Crewe Works at the end of May 1964 (WHTS) and BR Database report it as as scrapped in the same month.



Seen previously in post #2645 is Britannia 70033 Charles Dickens here on a down Holyhead relief train at Tring Station on 14th July 1962. It had been a Willesden engine since February 1961 and moved around a lot before ending up at Carlisle Kingmoor in July 1965 where it was withdrawn in July 1967. (SLS). It was scrapped at Campbells, Airdrie, in April1968. (BR Database). LNWR water column again nicely in evidence at the platform end.



Black 5 44869 on an up special at Tring Station on 14th July 1962. At the time the Black 5 was a Northampton engine and had been since April 1961. It moved to Banbury in October 1965 and Heaton Mersey in June 1966 before withdrawal in the following October. (SLS). It went to Draper’s in Hull (RO) where it was scrapped in February 1967. (WHTS).



Brian

 

[Arun Sharma]

Arun
The loco was allocated to Llandudno Junc in September 64 so it was already there in December. Whilst it might nominally have been usable in practice it was almost certainly already stored when on paper it was transferred from the running dept to the accountants as a redundant asset to be disposed of, and its allocation to Crewe North for scrapping is again matter of accountancy than engineering. My post does say week ending (w/e) but thank you for the reminder. My info on Wards doesn't have this particular Jubilee scrapped there, but it may have been of course.
Martin

Martin - One of Dick Hardy's articles in 'Steam World' dealt with his time as shedmaster at Norwich Crown Point. On his books he had a small stud of Thomson B1s which had their coupling gear removed. These locos were used solely for internal yard shunting movements/carriage warming duties and had been given departmental loco numbers. The reason he gave for removing the coupling gear was that an engine in revenue earning service would have had an associated insurance bond applied by BR HQ. So that [in this specific case] an uninsured engine could not be used outside of the depot on any duties, the couplings were removed.
As far as stored engines go, I would imagine that as an accounting and legal measure, once an engine was 'stored pending withdrawal' it would have been unable legally to have been used in any way outside of the storage site without that status being revoked at a higher level of authority than the shedmaster. Thus it was always cheaper and legally less troublesome to store engines at their last working shed rather than move them to concentration points under their own steam.

 

[oldravendale]

Interesting you mention that, Arun, as I have photos of one of the "steam heating" locos, the erstwhile 61264 at Woodham's, Barry, on 9th November 1968. As you may know this later went to the GCR at Loughborough for restoration and despite the boiler being pretty well a write off it was successfully restored for main line running. In completing the circle the loco is now at the GCR (North) at Ruddington for its next overhaul. See 61264 (LNER 1264, BR 61264 & BR Dept. 29)







Brian

 

[timbowales]

Once again the interesting stuff is not the train.
Love that BICC minibus in the photo of 70033 at Tring

 

[Arun Sharma]

Once again the interesting stuff is not the train.
Love that BICC minibus in the photo of 70033 at Tring

Agree - BICC as those of a certain age will remember were the folk who put up the wiring on the Southern half of the WCML. A trip northwards from Queens Park to say, Watford Jcn by tube would have revealed dozens of olive green BICC rail vehicles- mostly quite ancient and repurposed rolling stock. Sadly, I never considered them worth photographing at the time.

 

[Barry37]

Thank you Simons, @simond and @SimonT and Heather @Heather Kay for your help re that coaching stock and Brookwood. I've asked for some more info so we'll see what's forthcoming. Also @40057 that wry comment made me smile.

Barry @Barry37, Adam @AJC and Tim @timbowales many thanks for putting together so much info on that WD train. Also, Barry, re your comment about the platelayers' hut. It appears in several of Tim's recent photos and possibly with more detail - see img3379 in post #4178, img3297 in post #4094 and img3281 in post #4082 as examples.

Martin @Martin Shaw and Arun. Thanks to you both for the further and better info about Ajax. How I missed the scrapyard ID I don't know, as I looked at the WHTS site... I must've been looking at the wrong entry when I got that far down the history but we'll never know. Sometimes I worry about myself... (But not very often .

Royal Scot 46110 Grenadier Guardsman on a down fitted freight at North Wembley on 13th July 1962. This has been on these pages quite recently, in posts #2595 and #2631. 46110 belonged to Edge Hill at the time and moved to Carlisle Kingmoor in July 1963 where it was withdrawn in February 1964. (SLS). It was scrapped at J McWilliams, Shettleston by the end of December. (Rail UK). Ex LMS DC unit on the down Watford line in the right background.

View attachment 226951

Royal Scot 46167 The Hertfordshire Regiment on an up extra at North Wembley on 13th July 1962. The loco was allocated to Crewe North in June 1962, then Holyhead in October the same year, Crewe North again in March, Holyhead in May, Willesden in July and Annesley in October – all in 1963 – before withdrawal in April 1964. (SLS). It was seen at Annesley in store on 17th May and then at Crewe Works at the end of May 1964 (WHTS) and BR Database report it as as scrapped in the same month.

View attachment 226952

Seen previously in post #2645 is Britannia 70033 Charles Dickens here on a down Holyhead relief train at Tring Station on 14th July 1962. It had been a Willesden engine since February 1961 and moved around a lot before ending up at Carlisle Kingmoor in July 1965 where it was withdrawn in July 1967. (SLS). It was scrapped at Campbells, Airdrie, in April1968. (BR Database). LNWR water column again nicely in evidence at the platform end.

View attachment 226953

Black 5 44869 on an up special at Tring Station on 14th July 1962. At the time the Black 5 was a Northampton engine and had been since April 1961. It moved to Banbury in October 1965 and Heaton Mersey in June 1966 before withdrawal in the following October. (SLS). It went to Draper’s in Hull (RO) where it was scrapped in February 1967. (WHTS).

View attachment 226954

Brian

Thanks for the Platelayers' hut references, Brian.
It seems to be an LNER design, continued by BR. As it looks quite new, presumably the amount of traffic didn't allow use of a Wickham trolley, unless it was got off the track pretty quickly. So, somewhere to eat or shelter from rain was still needed. As the door was padlocked, it might contained some basic tools.